Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#201

Post by cuckcuckspruce » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #199

bad_user wrote: post #133

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

> Google is the destroyer of privacy. Google tracks their users at an unprecedented level in the whole history of humanity and if they do this, we now have concrete proof that they don't have values that are above their bottom line. Sure Google stores a lot of data about me, but why should I be worried? They haven't done anything malicious with it. All user data from Google stays on Google, so how is that any differe…

How do you know it stays with Google?

From Google's Privacy Policy: We provide personal information to our affiliates and other trusted businesses or persons to process it for us, based on our instructions and in compliance with our Privacy Policy and any other appropriate confidentiality and security measures. For example, we use service providers to help us with customer support.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#202

Post by the_grue » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #121

There are lots of tech companies active in countries like China, Russia, Iran, and other countries with varying ideas about privacy, human rights, etc. This generally requires complying with local legislation, whether you agree with that or not. Singling out Google for not opting to exclude a fifth of the population of this planet from their products is a bit overkill. I'd rather they offer choice to the Chinese peop…

How precisely does the fact that these countries exist 'require' complying with local legislation? Google is free to host their servers in other countries, which are free from censorship laws. It's not like Google needs to be present in that market to survive.

In a bigger context, the Internet business, and Google in particular, is a product of a free, liberal society. It couldn't have existed without freedom. Thus freedom is linked with success. So, as long as Google is innovative, it has that inherent advantage over its Chinese competitors.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#203

Post by panarky » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #172

panarky wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power Google fights major world powers every day [1, 2]. And Google doesn't have to fight to force the Chinese government to stop censoring their citizens. Google can simply choose not to partner with repressive regimes in enabling and legitimizing censorship and mass surveillance. [1] https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overvi…

>Google fights major world powers every day That's right, if by 'fight' you mean following rules laid out in countries that it operates in. If the rules are completely skewed against them (and other foreign companies) as they are in China, they have no recourse other than to appeal to their government to lobby on their behalf. Facebook is in a similar position with respect to Russian interference. The narrative pushe…

> following rules laid out in countries that it operates in

Exactly my point. Google can choose not to operate in countries where the rules are too egregiously antithetical to their mission.

> Facebook should have fought a major world power

Facebook is responsible for the damage because Facebook built the tools that enabled bad actors to hack democracies and Facebook profited from it (in the short term).

Google is in a similar position. Should they build the tools that enable systematic repression and profit from it?

Sure, they can claim they're "only following orders" but when has that ever worked out well?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#204

Post by mocae » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:09 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #159

mocae wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it look like google would starve without China. Like they have to go there and participate. Shifting the blame for your lack of ethics onto some government is ridiculous in this context. My god...where is your shame?

>My god...where is your shame? Do you have no sense of your own hypocrisy? I am certain you have 0 qualms in using and buying Chinese manufactured products, or buying services and products from companies that operate in China. And yet here we are with you lecturing from your soapbox on who should be or shouldn't be ashamed of their actions. Look to yourself first before moralizing at others.

There is a difference between not having a choice and openly advertising and justifying unethical behavior. The fact that this is the only sentence you've touched speaks for itself.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#205

Post by ainiriand » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

alexandercrohde wrote: post #107

afroboy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me tell you that abiding and legitimating freedom opressing regimes is not very american, even if it is for money. This is really far from the truth,Israel and Saudi arabia are example how this is bullshit.

If you have examples where America puts money before the freedom of the individual to have a political opinion, then it's those examples that need to change, not our standard of America.

Nailed. I tried to convey both things. First how America is blocking some countries for political reasons linked with democracy and liberty. On the other side of the spectrum there is the need to trade with some shady regimes. This is the side in which America needs to be more firm. Regarding China, we should not celebrate that an American company legitimates this censorship. Moreso (more-so?) when the company itself made billions on top of a technology designed for sharing information in an open way.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#206

Post by fixermark » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

kushti wrote: post #200

hartator wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gestapo-like privacy invaders Hum, I don’t remember Google actions has led to the slaughter of milliona of people. But, please enlight me.

Alphabet Inc helped pro-American terrorists in Syria https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12166#efmAMoAbj . Only a tribunal will show hopefully how many people were affected by this.

I didn't know opposing the brutal Syrian dictatorship got people labeled "Gestapo," but here we are.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#207

Post by dmitrygr » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

goliatone wrote: post #197

yifanl wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need deep machine learning to write a simple script to fetch data from your servers. If Google can read all Gmail users' emails, Fastmail can read all their users' emails.

I think maybe the point is that reading all your emails seems to be Google’s business model, while FastMail is a service provider that charges users for the service? Also, regarding “your data” being more secure with google... is more like Google is good at securing their main asset, which is Google’s data about you.

Google no longer uses Gmail data for targeting. No person or ai is reading your email from your grandmother, florist, or then confirmation that you bought paper towels on Amazon.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#208

Post by fixermark » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

econ4all wrote: post #185

bad_user wrote: post #133

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

Not to interrupt another google bashing session on this site or stop an EU person from self-righteously patting themselves on the back but conflating several issues to justify political reprisal is exactly what's wrong with the EU's fine issuance regime and ad-hominem attacks on companies to try and justify the practice to yourself doesn't make it look better. Also "anti-trust" is an american term with historical con…

It's a different standard of measurement. American anti-trust is about preventing a monopoly from harming consumers via perverse incentives; European anti-trust is about preventing a competitor from driving other laborers out of the market (less emphasis placed on the end-result to the consumer).

Case in point (though it was France-specific, it highlights the difference in viewpoint): Amazon was fined by the French government because their discounts + Amazon Prime discount exceeded a legal limit of how deep a discount you were allowed to give on books. That limit was in place due to lobbying efforts by the book-seller's guild; it has nothing to do with bringing consumers the lowest price possible and everything to do with preventing individual sellers from driving each other out of business via short-term loss-leading discounts. Whether or not Amazon could offer its discounts because of more-efficient processes that minimize their overhead (such as being able to ship books to people only when needed instead of holding a bunch of brick-and-mortar real-estate to locally warehouse unsold merchandise) doesn't even enter into the discussion---drop below the critical price, pay the fine.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#209

Post by hahahaha23 » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #159

mocae wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it look like google would starve without China. Like they have to go there and participate. Shifting the blame for your lack of ethics onto some government is ridiculous in this context. My god...where is your shame?

>My god...where is your shame? Do you have no sense of your own hypocrisy? I am certain you have 0 qualms in using and buying Chinese manufactured products, or buying services and products from companies that operate in China. And yet here we are with you lecturing from your soapbox on who should be or shouldn't be ashamed of their actions. Look to yourself first before moralizing at others.

I don’t understand your logic.

A company making toothbrush is different from a company helps censorship.

The point is what a company does, not where it operates.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#210

Post by fixermark » Wed, Aug 01, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

panarky wrote: post #144

mywacaday wrote: post #20

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

> Why should there be a different standard for Google Because Google "is not a conventional company" [1]. A tired trope on HN is that corporations cannot and should not be ethical entities. They are legally mandated to maximize shareholder value, and this usually requires taking actions that people find morally repugnant. This is a myth and it is horseshit. Google's mission is to "organize the world's information and…

How does refraining from providing any search access whatsoever to a country with a population of 1.4 billion fit the mission of "organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful?"

One would assume it implies offering services to people in China is a goal. Perhaps "do the right thing" is open to interpretation.

> Organic search results skewed by ad payments or censorship is antithetical to Google's mission.

Has Google's policy of blocking images of pedophilia from search results in countries where the laws and morals of the country forbid those images compromised its mission? Or is there room in the mission for the nuance that different people have different common standards?