You Can't Innovate Like Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#61

Post by cletus » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 5:17 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #59

extension wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, upgrade to the latest iPod Nano and whoa, no camera. So wait, if I get the old version I get a camera and now I completely lose it. But if I go up to the iPod touch I get the camera, but the classic line never had one? But this is a deliberate choice by Apple, not one forced on them by technology. And users understand that this year's iPod Nano is a different product from last year's, with different feat…

I'm not sure if customers care about the distinction of confusion caused at the initiative of Apple versus that caused at the initiative of the "technology". Regarding GSM vs CDMA specifically, there is hardly been any type of outcry regarding voice/data on CDMA, even amongst people who move from GSM to CDMA. In fact, I've never herad anyone complain about it. The only real complaint I've heard about CDMA is that you…

It doesn't come up because the US mobile phone market is almost completely balkanized: how many handsets are released in GSM and CDMA versions (or even that do both GSM and CDMA)? Hardly any.

Buying a cell phone in the US basically means picking a carrier and then picking a handset. In almost every other country--and certainly those that are GSM based (including all of Europe and Australia)--have handsets that are interchangeable on networks.

Why there aren't cross-technology phones (barring some minor exceptions) is exactly why Apple won't do it either. Particularly because CDMA is a dying technology anyway (at least in the developed world).

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#62

Post by kenjackson » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 5:24 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #61

kenjackson wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if customers care about the distinction of confusion caused at the initiative of Apple versus that caused at the initiative of the "technology". Regarding GSM vs CDMA specifically, there is hardly been any type of outcry regarding voice/data on CDMA, even amongst people who move from GSM to CDMA. In fact, I've never herad anyone complain about it. The only real complaint I've heard about CDMA is that you…

It doesn't come up because the US mobile phone market is almost completely balkanized: how many handsets are released in GSM and CDMA versions (or even that do both GSM and CDMA)? Hardly any. Buying a cell phone in the US basically means picking a carrier and then picking a handset. In almost every other country--and certainly those that are GSM based (including all of Europe and Australia)--have handsets that are in…

But people change carriers a fair bit. Churn is huge in the US. And yet almost no one picks one carrier over another due to this feature. The big CDMA carrier is bigger than the big GSM carrier. And the little CDMA carrier (Sprint) is bigger than the little GSM carrier (TMo). It's really a non-issue.

And even the Samsung Galaxy S phones... read the reviews. While people talk about some differences on the phones, I haven't seen a single review mention the voice/data issue. And they just announced selling 5 million units in just a few months -- so its not exactly a niche phone.

And a quick search brings up a ton of "Android Fragmentation" issues. They talk about everything from 1.4 vs 2.2. of Android to screen resolutions to keyboard/no keyboard to camera support, etc... I haven't found a mention of voice/data fragmentation.

So if this is a problem that Apple would have it would be one that no one else in the industry has had to explain. I fully expect Apple's magic would make this the same non-issue it is for everyone else.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#63

Post by ritusjain » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 5:24 PM UTC

The reason Apple was successful at coming back from the dark period is because of Steve Jobs. Here is my question. Is it more important to have a CEO that has an innovative vision or is it more important to have a employee base thats is innovative?

And I would argue that the former is the crucial sauce for success... which makes it hard to be sustainable...

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#64

Post by cletus » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 5:25 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #62

cletus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't come up because the US mobile phone market is almost completely balkanized: how many handsets are released in GSM and CDMA versions (or even that do both GSM and CDMA)? Hardly any. Buying a cell phone in the US basically means picking a carrier and then picking a handset. In almost every other country--and certainly those that are GSM based (including all of Europe and Australia)--have handsets that are in…

But people change carriers a fair bit. Churn is huge in the US. And yet almost no one picks one carrier over another due to this feature. The big CDMA carrier is bigger than the big GSM carrier. And the little CDMA carrier (Sprint) is bigger than the little GSM carrier (TMo). It's really a non-issue. And even the Samsung Galaxy S phones... read the reviews. While people talk about some differences on the phones, I ha…

Apple isn't "most companies". That's kinda the point.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#65

Post by kenjackson » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 5:35 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #64

kenjackson wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people change carriers a fair bit. Churn is huge in the US. And yet almost no one picks one carrier over another due to this feature. The big CDMA carrier is bigger than the big GSM carrier. And the little CDMA carrier (Sprint) is bigger than the little GSM carrier (TMo). It's really a non-issue. And even the Samsung Galaxy S phones... read the reviews. While people talk about some differences on the phones, I ha…

Apple isn't "most companies". That's kinda the point.

My point is that I don't think the following conversation happened:

CFO: "Hmm... we get an extra $30B in profit if we support Verizon, and effectively end Androids short run and block WP7 from ever breathing.."

Jobs: "Screw it. This will mean that some customers will have voice/data and some won't. And while our current users can't touch their phone and make a call at the same time, and the fact that we're selling a neutered product in AppleTV, this is where I draw the line. Even if it means that we completely dominate the mobile space for here to eternity. I draw the line here."

I just don't think it happened at Apple or at "most companies".

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#66

Post by ody » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 6:41 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #41

ody wrote: post #25

"Apple designs for #2. No other mass-consumer products company puts as much attention to detail into the fit and finish of the box—let alone the out-of-box experience." I'm sorry but no they do not put as much attention to detail into their products as you would think. They didn't even have multitasking in the iPhone until recently! And what was the antenna problems all about? All I see is just enough attention to de…

I'd actually argue the opposite; Apple pays so much attention to detail that they figured out that multitasking isn't really important, so they could just do it later. Copy and paste is awkward, it isn't absolutely necessary, they could just do it later. Even the antenna thing: only the tech press knows anything about this. Apple said that just under 2% of people returned an iPhone 4. During that whole scandal, I ask…

Being a curious one, I had a look round your site as listed in your profile. You say have a Nexus One, yet your personal site, Watch.Steve, releases the tutorials in "iPhone + Apple TV" format and the filenames have iphone in there.

Just an observation ;-) Prompted mainly by the strange pointless dig at the Nexus One which had no relevance to the conversation or OP.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#67

Post by steveklabnik » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 6:45 PM UTC

ody wrote: post #54

steveklabnik wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually argue the opposite; Apple pays so much attention to detail that they figured out that multitasking isn't really important, so they could just do it later. Copy and paste is awkward, it isn't absolutely necessary, they could just do it later. Even the antenna thing: only the tech press knows anything about this. Apple said that just under 2% of people returned an iPhone 4. During that whole scandal, I ask…

2 out of 5 is a really big issue and a massive lack of attention to detail. I really don't see how you could think otherwise.

My personal sample of 5 people is not large enough to draw any conclusion from, either way.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#68

Post by steveklabnik » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 6:50 PM UTC

ody wrote: post #66

steveklabnik wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually argue the opposite; Apple pays so much attention to detail that they figured out that multitasking isn't really important, so they could just do it later. Copy and paste is awkward, it isn't absolutely necessary, they could just do it later. Even the antenna thing: only the tech press knows anything about this. Apple said that just under 2% of people returned an iPhone 4. During that whole scandal, I ask…

Being a curious one, I had a look round your site as listed in your profile. You say have a Nexus One, yet your personal site, Watch.Steve, releases the tutorials in "iPhone + Apple TV" format and the filenames have iphone in there. Just an observation ;-) Prompted mainly by the strange pointless dig at the Nexus One which had no relevance to the conversation or OP.

Yep. The site was originally a copy of the code for Railscasts, which does the same thing. I'm a life-long Mac user, but I do own a Nexus One, because I absolutely refuse to do business with AT&T.

I don't think the dig was pointless. I'm not an EE kind of guy, but from my understanding, basically all modern cell phones can have their antennas interfered with through touching the bottom of your phone. But the way that the iPhone 4's case was designed increased the severity of the interference... my Nexus One does the same sort of thing. Just yesterday, I was talking on the phone, and when I tried to hold it with my shoulder rather than with my hands, I was told that I "sounded like I was underwater." This is almost 100% reproducible.

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#69

Post by ody » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 8:32 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #68

ody wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a curious one, I had a look round your site as listed in your profile. You say have a Nexus One, yet your personal site, Watch.Steve, releases the tutorials in "iPhone + Apple TV" format and the filenames have iphone in there. Just an observation ;-) Prompted mainly by the strange pointless dig at the Nexus One which had no relevance to the conversation or OP.

Yep. The site was originally a copy of the code for Railscasts, which does the same thing. I'm a life-long Mac user, but I do own a Nexus One, because I absolutely refuse to do business with AT&T. I don't think the dig was pointless. I'm not an EE kind of guy, but from my understanding, basically all modern cell phones can have their antennas interfered with through touching the bottom of your phone. But the way that…

Interesting about the Nexus One. I've got the Desire which, when I get out of my reception-less flat, I'll test for that problem.

I think the first time I tried holding it on my shoulder I dropped it so never held it like that again :-D

Re: You Can't Innovate Like Apple

#70

Post by sundae79 » Wed, Oct 06, 2010, 8:34 PM UTC

thought_alarm wrote: post #13

I'm reminded of the story of NUMMI [1], the American automobile plant that was a 1980s joint venture between GM and Toyota. (It was covered in an episode of This American Life). In a nutshell, the story of NUMMI involves American GM workers building Toyota-designed/GM-branded vehicles using Toyota's radically different manufacturing processes. The plant itself was a smashing success for GM; the plant achieved much hi…

The companies that you listed in the last paragraph, did do things differently at one point in their history. Now they have become bloated. What makes you say toyota, apple, and google will remain exactly where they are in 15 years.