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In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

bbc.com

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Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#351

Post by rezeroed »

saulrh wrote: post #326
rezeroed wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sounds like Africa too. I don't think this has anything to do with Brazil, rather undeveloped countries. The usual story of first-worlders thinking they know how the rest of the world works.

I don't think you get to claim cultural relativism on not putting up hazard signs. I'd also recommend against claiming cultural relativism on things like wheelchair accessibility, hard hats, fire and earthquake codes, or really 95% of the things covered by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the ADA, or similar entities. These are not things you should be proud of not having.

Not sure why you're shooting the messenger. I didn't applaud the hole in the road, or the lack of warning signs. I wasn't even commenting on those things, only that this is not exclusively Brazil. You can be as philosophical, logical, ideological as you like, in reality there is Africa time, etc, and you'll just have to get over it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_time )

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#352

Post by sonnyblarney »

jklinger410 wrote: post #300
sonnyblarney wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack…

I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination. When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hier…

"Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something entirely logical within their own culture"

To be fair, there is some cultural relativism here: leaving a hole is probably 'logical' on some level because a) maybe it's not an operational requirement of the workers, b) maybe there are no signs available and they can't do anything about it ... but more likely c) these behaviours are common and it's hard to get anyone to 'act above and beyond' the local climate.

Those same workers might be totally different people with 3 months 'on the job' in Germany, with German standards, laws and behavioural norms.

I think cultural relativism (to which you are referring) is a real thing, but we can't use it as an excuse either.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#353

Post by oscargrouch »

mFixman wrote: post #97
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #6

I don't think this is just a Brazilian thing. When I throw parties in the US nobody shows up until 30 mins after the start time, and the peak of people showing up is between 60 and 90 minutes after start time. The exception to this is dinner parties, where people are much more punctual because they know you're planning the meal timeline.

Cultural norms are different for different kind of events. In the US and most of the West, it's expected to be okay to be around one hour late for big house parties. However, Americans wouldn't normally be late for job interviews or other important events in a set time, which is completely normal in Latin America.

> However, Americans wouldn't normally be late for job interviews or other important events in a set time, which is completely normal in Latin America.

Nope. Sorry, but you are completely wrong. If you are late in job interviews for instance, you will probably not grant the job, if its in bussiness meetings, it will hurt your credentials in the company and it can even lead one to be fired.

Bussiness mentality is different than party mentality. Other things you must have to take into account is local culture. Rio is more laidback, while Sao Paulo is much, much less because it has more of a bussiness culture. (And i bet its the same in the US between different cities).

Thats one of the reasons why i try to teach some people, that for some contexts, thinking in terms of 'Latin America' its just wrong and too broad of a generalization.

You cant hardly generalize the whole of Brazil, and doing so in terms of Latin America is even worse.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#354

Post by sonnyblarney »

sooheon wrote: post #350
sonnyblarney wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack…

Conscientiousness is taught and learned. You weren't born with your current conception of what it means to be a conscientious member of society, you learned it explicitly and through osmosis. "Nobody with an ounce of decency" is an unnecessarily loaded way to refer to people who, frankly, are who they are through no real fault of their own.

I agree with most of that but this:

"are who they are through no real fault of their own"

This is the ultimate cultural relativism rubbish, no offence, but people make their own decisions in life. It's this kind of reasoning that some try to use to absolve murderers and thugs for their actions.

Surely on some level we're all the result of our upbringing, but we also have to take responsibility for what we are at some point.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#355

Post by oscargrouch »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #77
ufo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure a racist account of 1915 Japan is the best source to explain Brazil's technology sector, to say the least.

I agree that a racist account of 1915 Japan doesn't really say very much about what's going on with Brazil's economy. But I do think it's important to notice that when the BBC is saying something like "Brazilians are always late" there might be more going on than just a lazy culture. I was hoping someone whose started a business in Brazil would come along and tell me what it's like. I really know nothing about the co…

The article is talking about a party. Its not in the bussiness context, which as a Brazilian myself i can say, it works with punctuality as expected.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#356

Post by wirrbel »

oo0shiny wrote: post #244
wirrbel wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a funny and entertaining text snippet. I would however not have a problem (except maybe, that it wouldn't be written by a native speaker) to write a similar text about the US, from a German perspective. And think of what a swiss person could write. I could write about interstates that looked like tarred roads. About train stations in chicago that were closed and falling apart and locals explained that it was…

I would read that. Reminds me of the Bill Bryson books he wrote about coming back to America after living in England for 20 years. The most memorable part for me was the vast amounts of cupholders in American cars that aren't found in vehicles anywhere else in the world.

I just remember this feeling "over the big pond" that I was standing in houses of people that I assumed to have a good income looking at things and thinking to myself "if I would buy this now, it wouldn't last me till retirement"...

Another memorable event was learning about the true American religion: Tide. I still cannot believe people seem to be addicted to a detergent that costs a small fortune per bottle. I kind of assume that the typical top loader washing machines aren't much more expensive than the detergent (here I have never seen one of these fake washing machines).

Another thing I remember is design. My father is a hobbyist wood carver and painter with an admiration for the romantic epoch up to the art of the 20ies I would say. I was raised in the firm belief, that a certain aestheticism was lost when artistic and design styles moved ahead. When I was in the US I had at one point an almost enlightenment. I - like many other exchange students - recognised how many things in the us are designed with ornaments, I am not speaking about old stuff things that are produced today. This starts with pens, book covers and furniture, over Greek style columns at family homes and hospitals, and I can only describe this weird feeling with what I assume to an American is the feeling when looking at stuff of Donald trunp. No clear lines but ornaments everywhere. Then I realised that the US has never completely said goodbye to art deco and related styles. Since I know now what the logical continuation of art deco in the 21st century is, j am much less inclined to join my father in mourning the arrival of modern design.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#357

Post by jklinger410 »

jackvezkovic wrote: post #347
jklinger410 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination. When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hier…

> They leave because they are lazy... Probably sounds better in the original German. These proofs by anecdotes are really fast food for the biased mind. Just as a thought experiment, if Brazilians are inherently 'lazy' as you say and it has nothing to do with the environment that they are in and its incentives, then are they also lazy abroad? Do they also forget to put signs when they dig holes? Do they do a worse se…

I don't care if they are Brazilians or Norwegian. If you leave an open hole for someone to fall down you are being negligent.

The whole crux of my argument is to remove the concept of culture from the discussion unless it is absolutely necessary.

Sorry to bow out but I think you are barking up the wrong tree trying to get me to say something unique about Brazil. Human laziness and general awfulness is universal.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#358

Post by thanatropism »

drukenemo wrote: post #281
thanatropism wrote: post #246

Rio is known for its culture of ambiguity. Another classic is "let's get together sometimes" (which means "dude, I totally don't hate you so let's be on each other's background social circle but never get together sometimes"). And its friendlier varient "come by my home sometimes to visit". (Don't go. It means they like you, but just don't show up unannounced). Everyone is on about how São Paulo is much more business…

Have you ever heard of the coconut vs peach theory? https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/ Seems like cariocas are peach and paulistas (people from São Paulo) are coconut.

It's a good metaphor.

It's interesting that they would characterize Americans (at least those of an "international" style that study abroad or socialize with Brazilians) as peaches, though. My first impression with an American is typically "this is a very very honest person that will hold me to a high standard".

This is maybe where the coconuts/peaches idea breaks: you can be someone who is "open" in the sense of having a Bayesian prior that people are generally good; but also be very quick to change their minds (unforgiving) and very literal (which is a kind of reactionary take on the ambiguity of superficial relationships).

So the spectrum I want to draw is more like ambivalence-judgementalness. (I want to keep ranting about Joao Gilberto vs. Chet Baker as jazz-pop singers and how one uses dissonant x/9/11/13 chords as a way to open up interpretation on the underlying basic harmonic structure while the other uses the same extended chord-color palette to create smoother but definite harmonic structures.)

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#359

Post by foobieoutsider »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #77
ufo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure a racist account of 1915 Japan is the best source to explain Brazil's technology sector, to say the least.

I agree that a racist account of 1915 Japan doesn't really say very much about what's going on with Brazil's economy. But I do think it's important to notice that when the BBC is saying something like "Brazilians are always late" there might be more going on than just a lazy culture. I was hoping someone whose started a business in Brazil would come along and tell me what it's like. I really know nothing about the co…

Brazil is a huge country, with 200M inhabitants, an area as big as the continental US and a diverse population composed of imigrants from all over the world. What we hear from outsiders is almost always based on local and limited experiences (like this one from the BBC, limited to Rio). There's no single "Brazilian culture".

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#360

Post by mlevental »

tchaffee wrote: post #215
mlevental wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

also anecdotal claims are pretty irresponsible too: it's well documented that people are less punctual in warmer climates and in developing countries https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/67419

The article itself was anecdotal so refuting it only required an opposing anecdote. While I appreciate an actual study, I'd have to see something specific to São Paulo for it to be interesting or useful to me. I'm not going to come to any conclusions about a specific city based on a study so broad. Also, the article summary you cited says nothing about punctuallity. It talks about pace of life. Where can I see the fu…

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/43117638_The_Pace_o...
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