In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party • Hacker News Board

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#291

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

AlexB138 wrote: post #289

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A meeting starting at the right time? Inconceivable I found a solution to this problem which is as effective as it is potentially insulting, and so is best left for later in one's career. Schedule a few more days than you think you'll need. Show up for meetings 15 minutes early and then, after waiting 15 minutes, leave. When asked about it, play dumb and imply you thought you got the time or location wrong. Resched…

> .. you'll have isolated the most ambitious people ... forged a solid and mutually-respectful working relationship with them You'll have found people who are willing to play petty games instead of having frank conversations about expectations. Those sorts of things are anything but mutually-respectful and encourage future childish behavior. There is nothing wrong with explaining "The meeting starts at noon. I expect…

> There is nothing wrong with explaining

I do--and did--this. And then for about half the meetings nobody showed up for thirty minutes. My point is that setting the expectation by example--in addition to explicitly communicating it in advance--works.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#292

Post by tk75x » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

mpol wrote: post #181

cmoscoso wrote: post #178

This is racism and it’s not allowed on HN.

It is about culture, which is a real thing. Racism would mean there are races in humankind, which is mostly found to be untrue.

Out of curiosity, what would you label people that believe their skin color or ethnic group is superior and that others are inferior? Can you back up your claim that there are no races in humankind?

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#293

Post by nradov » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

alokrai wrote: post #201

sonnyblarney wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree with that, however, their dogma is reasonable. And no the Greeks destroyed their own economy though systematic hard and soft corruption, knowingly hiding irregularities, unwillingness to make any necessary reforms, etc. etc.. The IMF's 'dogma' operates under the assumption that there are conscientious, reasonable and rational actors on the other side of the loan. One might argue that it is this assumptio…

The fact that the Greek state is incompetent or corrupt was not unknown before the crisis. The banks granted loans to Greece knowing that the Greek state was incapable of paying back because they were certain that ECB (or EU) would guarantee their loans. If you are assigning moral faults, then please do so for the banks too who made their loans knowing the facts & assuming that they would be bailed out by EU if thing…

Who exactly would force banks to grant Greece a debt haircut? And what would stop every other indebted nation from demanding the same deal?

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#294

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #191

São Paulo is a city of over 12 million people, the largest city in the southern hemisphere of our planet, and is almost 10% of the Brazilian population. Almost everyone I meet with in SP is on time for work related meetings. I haven't noticed a difference between SP, the UK, the USA, or many of the other places I've worked. Generalizing about an entire country when that generalization is wrong for its biggest city ma…

The article is more about Rio than the rest of Brasil, and more about social rather than business gatherings. When I first started dating my (Carioca) wife, and was planning a birthday party for her at a restaurant, she warned me to send out a start time of 6:00 if I wanted people to actually start rolling in around 7-7:30. Sure enough, first guest arrived around 8:00. Not hard to get used to, just treat it like a different time zone.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#295

Post by neves » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

As a Carioca, my pet theory is that we are always late due to the lack of a decent public transport, specially trains. British trains are famous for being on time to the minute. Brazil is a really unequal society, public transport is really for the poor and terrible.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#296

Post by dmix » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:21 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #192

cm2012 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that not putting up road signs doesn't tie clearly to education and resources. It's also true that societal education and resources over time correlates strongly with putting up road signs, as the Japan anecdote suggests.

They are all correlated and I'm not pointing fingers. A society in which nobody give a crap ... it's hard to find people that will consistently rise above.

Indeed, it's also dangerous to be so passe about everything. Especially construction. Just because it's a cultural phenomenon doesn't make it an admirable one or one that should just be accepted as 'how it is'. Plenty of cultures have evolved and changed for the better.

A subset of Scots from an area near the border on England used to be known for having a culture where fist fighting over disputes was common and education was looked down upon. Many of these groups migrated to the American south and eventually moved on from violence and education rates have since drastically improved.

You can be critical or concerned about a culture phenomenon without dismissing the culture outright like some racist book in the 1920s about Japanese...

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#297

Post by tehbeard » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

neves wrote: post #295

As a Carioca, my pet theory is that we are always late due to the lack of a decent public transport, specially trains. British trains are famous for being on time to the minute. Brazil is a really unequal society, public transport is really for the poor and terrible.

> British trains are famous for being on time to the minute.

What?

Can someone inform our train drivers of this please?

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#298

Post by rezeroed » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #229

alokrai wrote: post #107

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been “dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day,…

I've also seen this in Mexico. Sometimes, roads just end, into holes and large rocks and equipment. However, this is mainly an issue in rural areas. And even though there may be no signs, there's typically a line of small rocks, maybe 0.5 meter from the edge.

Yeah, sounds like Africa too. I don't think this has anything to do with Brazil, rather undeveloped countries. The usual story of first-worlders thinking they know how the rest of the world works.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#299

Post by dmix » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #263

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility Your expectations and the expectations in most parts of the west are that everyone take care to protect others from being harmed by their actions. Brazil, Indonesia, India, etc, expect people to be vigilant and steer clear of things that may do them harm. The only reason you see that as wro…

"In the west we get everything in writing when we do business and rely on the ability of courts to enforce a contract to protect us " No way. The courts are a last resort both in business and for personal functions. My grandfather ran a hardware store and lumberyard back in 'the olden days' and would make windows for a farmer who promised to pay with '1/2 a cow' during slaughter season. The farmer would bring the cow…

This is probably a better example of how cultures are not a fixed thing and can evolve and change over time. Western culture, especially in rural areas and in smaller communities where you can know everyone (a more common phenomenon in the past), a contract would not have been needed. Or even have been insulting.

The "Gentleman's handshake" is a famous "old way" of doing things in America/the West. So this is not unique to foreign cultures.

But as we've industrialized, urbanized, globalized, etc, etc the use of contracts became a necessity and culture patterns began to reflect this. Partially as a reaction to need: it was harder to trust random people in a city with a few million people than a guy you know from town and see at Church. But also because it just made everything simpler and more efficient to just write it down. It makes any future disputes far less destructive, because what it says in the agreement is what matters, not what you think was the arrangement, which is a lot more personal and potentially destructive to relationships.

So therefore the cultures evolved largely out of need and rationality. And I expect many of the examples listed in China, Indonesia, etc to evolve in a similar way as the culture moves away from farming and rural areas to a globalized urban economy.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#300

Post by jklinger410 » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:32 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #152

brbrbrbrbr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really. It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain. As for #2, it's still a lack…

I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination.

When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hierarchy) it is almost like math, or a logic puzzle.

Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something entirely logical within their own culture. They leave because they are lazy and do not care for the level of danger it represents to others. To imply otherwise is simply dressing a pig.