In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party • Hacker News Board

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#271

Post by AlexB138 » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #266

AlexB138 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many societies they mutilate the genitals of female children. In many others they carry out honor killings when a member of the family acts, as they see it, incorrectly. These are two examples of aspect of society that vary from culture to culture. Cultural relativism is largely nonsense. Leaving a giant pit in the road for people to drive into is objectively a dangerous and selfish thing to do. Whether the expect…

> Cultural relativism is largely nonsense There are multiple optima on the cultural space. Americans' individualistic and Scandinavians' committee-loving systems both work well, and optimize for a complimentary set of problems. Saying "ignore the students–go to the beach," on the other hand, is an objectively worse cultural tenet than "balance everyone's needs."

Absolutely. In no way would I argue "It's what the West does, therefore it's right", and being aware of the "it's how we do it, so it's right" bias is worthwhile. There are definitely equally viable alternatives to many cultural norms. Unmarked pits in the road is not one, and I find the desire to treat all alternatives as equal, and a matter of culture, unsettling.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#272

Post by supertramp_ » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

Havoc wrote: post #140

So how does that work with say doctors appointments?

Same as in the US. Your appointment won't be on time and you will have to wait.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#273

Post by damptowel » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #184

alokrai wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogmas and ideologies of large organizations are almost as dangerous as their malice. Many of EU & IMF bureaucrats genuinely believed that they were helping the Greek economy recover while they were actually engaged in destroying it.

Yes, I agree with that, however, their dogma is reasonable. And no the Greeks destroyed their own economy though systematic hard and soft corruption, knowingly hiding irregularities, unwillingness to make any necessary reforms, etc. etc.. The IMF's 'dogma' operates under the assumption that there are conscientious, reasonable and rational actors on the other side of the loan. One might argue that it is this assumptio…

A certain EU country exports it’s supposed tax revenue to Greece so they can use 90% of it to pay their multinational banks. They have to do it in a currency they don’t own and is overvalued relative to their economy. The country mostly pressing for this is meanwhile running an export surplus and apparently asking the same for every economy in the region. This is not sensible economics any way you slice it.

It’s happened before in history and even has a name: debt bondage.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#274

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

kiproping wrote: post #253

mattlondon wrote: post #199

In the UK as a native Englishman I would be totally ok with people turning up late to a party/BBQ/whatever. No problem (although not for a dinner party where you need to prepare etc) But if you agree to meet people at a certain time, then being more than 10-15 minutes late without letting the person know is just rude, selfish and inconsiderate. Sure problems come up - these days there is zero excuse to not let the pe…

I am African and I can say that it depends on your culture.

> it depends on your culture

It does, and if you're trying to co-ordinate anything with a material number of people, one must recognize it's not a useful cultural aspect to carry forward. Timeliness allows for complex coordination. (It also allows for economic interfacing with the world's advanced economies.)

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#275

Post by Tharkun » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #113

jedmeyers wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And losing a world war? Something really shocking has to happen for the whole country to rethink ways of doing things.

WWII Japan is the result of its about face, not its cause.

To anyone who finds this interesting and wants to explore this further: i can recommend the book 'Modern Japan: A Very Short Introduction'.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#276

Post by nradov » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #151

chairmanwow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Western problem” yikes. To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic. If you were to use this tableau to jump into an argument against societies that are captilistic and encourage the chasing of material wealth over the informal, beautiful moments that make humanity interesting you would have a much stronger case. I think we would all benefit…

>Economic success requires efficiency in all aspects of a business. A lack of punctuality that permeates a society to the point that it effects business strategy is problematic. punctuality doesn't necessarily means efficiency. Punctuality itself comes at a cost. Somewhat similar to low latency. Your argument reminds about those Scrum proponents who tout that decreasing the latency and increasing synchronicity - what…

There is effectively zero cost to punctuality. If you have to spend 60 minutes in a meeting to get through the agenda items regardless of when it starts then there's no benefit to being late. Just show up on time.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#277

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

AlexB138 wrote: post #259

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility Your expectations and the expectations in most parts of the west are that everyone take care to protect others from being harmed by their actions. Brazil, Indonesia, India, etc, expect people to be vigilant and steer clear of things that may do them harm. The only reason you see that as wro…

In many societies they mutilate the genitals of female children. In many others they carry out honor killings when a member of the family acts, as they see it, incorrectly. These are two examples of aspect of society that vary from culture to culture. Cultural relativism is largely nonsense. Leaving a giant pit in the road for people to drive into is objectively a dangerous and selfish thing to do. Whether the expect…

This is exactly the "where I draw the line (as a result of the culture in which I was raised and live) is right and everyone else is wrong" way of thinking that I was complaining about.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that where people draw the line on personal responsibility to do things to protect other people vs people's responsibility to look out for themselves varies greatly based on their culture and right and wrong is a matter of perspective and consensus.

Am I being dangerous or selfish if I don't pay a licensed plumber to connect my new gas stove or water heater? What about if I do my own electricity (the Aus vs US split on this one should be interesting)? What if I keep firearms in my home? Is it my fault if someone coming to knock on my door and annoy me trips over some kid's toys on my porch? What if my stairs are icy and they slip?

Reconciling differing opinions on public safety vs individual freedom to act (or not act) as we please is something society must do. As much as I'd love to push everyone I don't agree with off a cliff that's not an option.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#278

Post by leg100 » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

mpol wrote: post #181

cmoscoso wrote: post #178

This is racism and it’s not allowed on HN.

It is about culture, which is a real thing. Racism would mean there are races in humankind, which is mostly found to be untrue.

The implication of what you're saying is that there is no such thing as racism...

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#279

Post by bane » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:35 PM UTC

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #24

"My impression as to your cheap labour was soon disillusioned when I saw your people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to see your men at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied and easy-going race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was impossible to change the habits of a national heritage." This excerpt appears in Ha-Joon C…

There was a significant national effort to change the same "national character" in South Korea after the war. Massive initiatives to institute a "bali bali" (hurry hurry) culture in the workplace and was seen as a national strategic need.

Here's an interview with an industrialist that describes the transformation: http://blog.lucforsyth.com/2012/01/under-pressure-byun-ho-sa...

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#280

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #231

ff317 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Direct democracy is still pretty awful though, especially for anyone who falls into any kind of true numerical minority category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority .

> Direct democracy is still pretty awful though, especially for anyone who falls into any kind of true numerical minority category That's a generalization its opponents make, but it isn't true. In most places where it was practiced (ancient Athens, short-lived anarchist areas in Spain, egalitarian communities, etc.) it was shown to be more benevolent and inclusive to "true numerical minorities" than most representati…

> it was shown to be more benevolent and inclusive to "true numerical minorities" than most representative democracies

Source? Athenian direct democracy was only for males, legally sanctioned slaves and allowed for a simple majority to ostracize people. Sparta's direct democratic elements oversaw a large Helot slave population.