In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party • Hacker News Board

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#151

Post by trhway » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

chairmanwow wrote: post #105

coldtea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have details on Brazil, but I am almost certain that this "Brazilian time" is just a symptom of some completely reversible, systemic problem that is making it difficult to do business with high-technologies in Brazil. Or inversely, it's a western problem that makes it difficult to live humanely and stress-free and incurs great human toll -- and at the point when we're so technologically advanced to not need…

“Western problem” yikes. To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic. If you were to use this tableau to jump into an argument against societies that are captilistic and encourage the chasing of material wealth over the informal, beautiful moments that make humanity interesting you would have a much stronger case. I think we would all benefit…

>Economic success requires efficiency in all aspects of a business. A lack of punctuality that permeates a society to the point that it effects business strategy is problematic.

punctuality doesn't necessarily means efficiency. Punctuality itself comes at a cost. Somewhat similar to low latency. Your argument reminds about those Scrum proponents who tout that decreasing the latency and increasing synchronicity - what the Scrum is really about - would miraculously lead to throughput increase. Which it never does, and usually it has quite the opposite effect (exactly as expected from the systems theory and experience)

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#152

Post by sonnyblarney » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:24 AM UTC

brbrbrbrbr wrote: post #135

alokrai wrote: post #107

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been “dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day,…

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really.

It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain.

As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around.

99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#153

Post by BrandonM » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:26 AM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #139

squarefoot wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why don't you want to be the first person?" In some cultures appearing a busy person can be important. Showing early to a party could send the message you had nothing to do before. Not that i like or do that, but some people could pay attention to such details.

It has nothing to do with looking busy. It's simply awkward when you go to a party and you're the only guest present and you don't know the hosts very well.

Even more so if the hosts are still frantically finishing preparations. As an acquaintance, do you offer help? Go for a walk around the block? Best to just avoid that altogether by showing up a little “late”.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#154

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:27 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #99

zhdc1 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education. The Japanese Empire was one of the first, if not first, nation in the world to have mandatory schooling that was accessible by a large majority of it's population. They beat the Brits by about a decade.

Yep. Mass education (as opposed to high end elite education) can turn a nation of free people into slaves (or, as Japanese call it, 社畜: corporate livestock). After a century of that, they're losing their collective will to live, too [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan

[deleted]

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#155

Post by raesene9 » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:28 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #151

chairmanwow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Western problem” yikes. To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic. If you were to use this tableau to jump into an argument against societies that are captilistic and encourage the chasing of material wealth over the informal, beautiful moments that make humanity interesting you would have a much stronger case. I think we would all benefit…

>Economic success requires efficiency in all aspects of a business. A lack of punctuality that permeates a society to the point that it effects business strategy is problematic. punctuality doesn't necessarily means efficiency. Punctuality itself comes at a cost. Somewhat similar to low latency. Your argument reminds about those Scrum proponents who tout that decreasing the latency and increasing synchronicity - what…

Whilst there may not be a perfect correlation between punctuality and efficiency, I'd suggest that it seems likely punctuality in business is more likely to be efficient than not.

For example if you have 10 people attending a meeting and all must wait till they are present before starting (a very common occurrance) having all 10 people turn up promptly is more efficient than having 1-9 people waiting for the remainder of the attendees to arrive.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#156

Post by coldtea » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:30 AM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #125

coldtea wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More laid-back countries are also more laid-back about "lying" about such a thing. It's just a polite way to say you're running late. Nobody cares whether it's actually the traffic or not. It's like saying to someone "you look nice in this shirt" when they don't.

> Nobody cares whether it's actually the traffic or not. Not sure if that's just a Dutch thing, but I would care as to why someone is late. There isn't an accident on the same road every day, so traffic can be a legit reason to be late; having forgotten to set an alarm clock, however, is totally someone's own fault (under normal circumstances, of course).

Yeah, but more laid-back cultures (time-wise) don't care much about assigning fault.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#157

Post by iKevinShah » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:31 AM UTC

brbrbrbrbr wrote: post #135

alokrai wrote: post #107

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been “dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day,…

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

"It is a matter of education and resources"

Education? Sure, but resources are in no way low in Brazil unless you mean very specific resource(s).

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#158

Post by latch » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:33 AM UTC

brbrbrbrbr wrote: post #135

alokrai wrote: post #107

Richard Feynman on Brazil: 1. “That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been “dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn’t bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day,…

To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil. To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit. https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna... has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

I don't know about #1. When I lived in Hong Kong, major road/sidewalk repair often seemed, by western style, unsafe. I never really figured out why, but it seemed more of you can lead a horse to water ...

Having spent the first half of my life in Canada, and the second in Asia, I've quickly realized that Canadians (and, I assume most of the west) are overprotected (insurance, medicine, health schemes, regulations, big brother, and, most obviously, food safety).

(While it isn't unique to Hong Kong, Hong Kong is the most affluent place I've seen this widespread).

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#159

Post by sonnyblarney » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:37 AM UTC

laughingman2 wrote: post #132

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a caveat, I am not an economist, and am quickly approaching the edge of my knowledge. I think that time is not really a factor here. Institutions like the IMF and WTO passively suppress the economic development of poor countries by withholding incentives unless they behave like rich countries. I don't think this is done out of malice though, because I've met people who genuinely believe that forcing businesses i…

I think its done out of malice however they dress it up. Ignoring history of how stolen wealth from colonialism and protectionist policies of the west during the colonial era etc when its convenient to do so is nothing but malice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... President Ulysses S. Grant stated: For centuries England has relied on protection, has carried it to extremes and has obtaine…

If it is done with malice, it's the dumbest, waste of malice evil project ever because nobody really benefits.

It is not done with malice.

The IMF/WB believe that nations that have basic infrastructure, basic forms of democracy, low corruption and relatively open markets ... will be successfull. This is neither malicious nor entirely naive.

It's pragmatically naive when you consider the leader of some nation may take a 10% cut off the loan, hire his buddies to 'build the dam that never gets built' and then of course you have a nation in debt ... but those debts are not advantageous to the West at all, so the conspiracy theories are wrong.

Now - where there is actual malice is when a large, Western industrial conglomerate might win a big contract and so they influence, bribe, fake data - and then get the contract to 'totally overbuild' some kind of capacity leaving a nation with way more than they need. That's malice, but it's definitely not the IMF/WB or lending nations that win there.

Re: In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

#160

Post by coldtea » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:37 AM UTC

chairmanwow wrote: post #105

coldtea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have details on Brazil, but I am almost certain that this "Brazilian time" is just a symptom of some completely reversible, systemic problem that is making it difficult to do business with high-technologies in Brazil. Or inversely, it's a western problem that makes it difficult to live humanely and stress-free and incurs great human toll -- and at the point when we're so technologically advanced to not need…

“Western problem” yikes. To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic. If you were to use this tableau to jump into an argument against societies that are captilistic and encourage the chasing of material wealth over the informal, beautiful moments that make humanity interesting you would have a much stronger case. I think we would all benefit…

>To write off the economic successes of the west under the guise of “problem” with western culture is deeply problematic.

Well, there is a problem with western culture in this area -- it can never be content, and its eating away the planet. It's own visionaries and thought leaders imagined a society of leisure and 3 hour workdays and such, but we have many times the efficiency per hour of previous ages, and people are overworked more than ever (not to mention increasingly in debt as well).

>Economic success requires efficiency in all aspects of a business.

Well, I'm against "economic success" beyond a certain point, and especially when it comes to the detriment of the society, and the environment. I'm for economic sustainability, and with utilizing the vast technological resources to improve life (as opposed to induce consumption).