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‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#231

Post by cycrutchfield »

arkh wrote: post #99
drawnwren wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that top 5 US schools are taking a much smaller percentage of a much larger population. They simply can't differentiate on academic performance alone. They generally admit somewhere around 5% of their applicants. Keeping in mind that those applicants are self-selecting, to some degree, thanks to the previously known admit rates and high application fees -- they have to use something else. A professor of…

In France, the most sought after enginnering schools use an entrance exam. No need to check for old academic performances as everyone is tested on the same things. They usually also have alternate admittance system but that's for 2% or 3% of students.

If you want to see how putting the entire admissions process on a single entrance exam will play out, look no further than the dystopian cram schools of China and India.

Unless we want to train a generation of rote-memorizers and elite test takers, this is not a direction that should be pursued.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#232

Post by SamReidHughes »

forapurpose wrote: post #197
paidleaf wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Harvard insists this was unbiased, but it's pretty incredible that Asians score so low on these measures and African-Americans so highly. Considering asians are considered "model minorities" and the best "assimilated" minority group in the US, it does seem odd. Also considering harvard alumni interviewers generally rated asian personalities just as high as everyone else's, I wonder why there is such a divergence fr…

> asians are considered "model minorities" and the best "assimilated" minority By who? What data is there? A stereotype is not evidence; repetition doesn't make it more likely. Nor can we infer from a stereotype - or even real data about assimilation - something about the personalities of individuals.

When people complain about diversity in Silicon Valley, Asians don't count.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#233

Post by aiyodev »

justin66 wrote: post #160
aiyodev wrote: post #59

It’s worth reminding everyone that Harvard is the reason there’s any discrimination in the admissions process. Students used to get accepted on academic merit alone. But Harvard wanted to covertly discriminate against Jewish applicants. The reason why you have to write essays about your extracurricular activities, for example, is because a Jewish applicant back then typically wouldn’t have any. It’s also when legacy…

> Students used to get accepted on academic merit alone. That seems unlikely, to put it mildly. Nepotism is not a recent innovation.

Did you read my post? Legacy admission was started at Harvard as a means of ethnic discrimination. Before then, a large percentage of students at Harvard were Jewish because they ignored the social convention that only the elites applied to Harvard. When students are judged only on academic merit, nepotism is not an issue.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#234

Post by _r_o_y_ »

DanBC wrote: post #65
speedplane wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using randomness to evaluate students is an admission that it's impossible to evaluate them with any objective or subjective criteria. While it would be fair, it's a dereliction of responsibility on the part of admissions officers.

But from all we know about recruitment and bias we know that it is impossible to fairly evaluate candidates. Random selection would be closer to meritocracy than anything that involves humans evaluating other humans.

Random would just favor the biggest demographic

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#235

Post by home_boi »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #230
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of downvotes. To clarify my point: The elite schools only want to admit so many future doctor/lawyer/engineers. Today, the way they limit those numbers hits asian applicants disproportionately hard. 80 years ago, jewish applicants were hit disproportionately hard. There was racism mixed in then as there is now, but having read a bit about those policies and experienced the current ones, I think the main thrust w…

You were downvoted probably because you could have stated it more tactfully. The real problem is that many Asian applicants tend to look similar on paper. There is a real problem among Asian families for hyper-optimizing on gaming the admissions system and overly trying to superficially hit all of the checkboxes for admissions (max out AP classes, start SAT test prep in middle school, play a musical instrument, etc.)…

Uniqueness and well-roundedness are traits of privilege. The activities typically used to signal "uniqueness" for college admissions like philanthropy and political activism have roots in privilege. If you're not from a rich, well-connected white family, the best chance for success is through the typical tryhard, academic STEM path. You can't afford to be unique. You don't have cronyism or money to fall back on.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#236

Post by home_boi »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #231
arkh wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France, the most sought after enginnering schools use an entrance exam. No need to check for old academic performances as everyone is tested on the same things. They usually also have alternate admittance system but that's for 2% or 3% of students.

If you want to see how putting the entire admissions process on a single entrance exam will play out, look no further than the dystopian cram schools of China and India. Unless we want to train a generation of rote-memorizers and elite test takers, this is not a direction that should be pursued.

Those admissions processes are actually seen as very fair processes in those countries. IIRC, there is very high economic diversity in the top colleges in China and India which can't be said about the Ivy League schools.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#237

Post by home_boi »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #106
dilap wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you explain the fact that admissions officers rated asian students lower on "personality" than alumni interviewers? from here: https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/06/harvard-discrimination...

Alumni Interview programs exist mainly to create a sense of continued involvement with the alma mater post-graduation so alumni will donate more. Their interview reports were rarely material to a decision. A main reason for this is that alumni, like newly minted admission officers, have no clue how preposterously competitive the process is and how many monstrously academically qualified applicants there are. So they…

Don't admission officers actually come from worse educational backgrounds than alumni? I think many AO never reach educational or career heights that would help them appreciate the accomplishments of applicants while alumni do.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#238

Post by TheCoelacanth »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #206
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed and for similar reasons imo, to guard against admiting too many students with no ambition beyond a comfy middle class lifestyle.

Lots of downvotes. To clarify my point: The elite schools only want to admit so many future doctor/lawyer/engineers. Today, the way they limit those numbers hits asian applicants disproportionately hard. 80 years ago, jewish applicants were hit disproportionately hard. There was racism mixed in then as there is now, but having read a bit about those policies and experienced the current ones, I think the main thrust w…

If you want to limit the number of doctor/lawyer/engineers, why not filter the applicants based on what they intend to study rather than filtering based on race based on the idea that race is somehow correlated with field of study?

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#239

Post by jessaustin »

echion wrote: post #203
jessaustin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he might have fit in at Dartmouth?

Fighting stereotypical prejudice with...a stereotype? Dartmouth is around the mean in Asian-American student body according to https://blog.collegevine.com/the-demographics-of-the-ivy-lea... .

"Not Asian" was not the stereotype invoked above.

17% < 19.6%, as if it matters.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#240

Post by mrguyorama »

lovich wrote: post #211
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed and for similar reasons imo, to guard against admiting too many students with no ambition beyond a comfy middle class lifestyle.

Is aiming for a middle class lifestyle ambitionless? Modern America is showing that it takes concentrates effort to maintain a middle class or it dissolves away

You forgot also needing enormous luck
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