‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#131

Post by emanrocks91 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

kart23 wrote: post #26

throwa_way_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race is a big factor.

It's a factor, but not a big one, and will usually make you have a bigger chance at getting in, but rarely will it decrease your chances. Harvard accepted ~17% Asian people, while the people who are suing them say it should be closer to 40%, like the UC system, which is race blind. They dont consider that more asians live in California, and thus more apply to the UCs. Yes, being black, Hispanic, or native American ca…

Hm I think your argument of considering historic context isn’t that great. When Asians first started coming to the US, lots of them were railroad workers treated like slaves, even now days Asians face a lot of racial discrimination (ever seen how they portrait an asian man on TV?). America is the land of opportunities, people should work for what they get. Handout will only make people look bad in the long term (how do minorities feel knowing that they might have been less qualified when getting in?)

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#132

Post by grandinj » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #108

fmajid wrote: post #94

They just repurposed a system that was designed in the 1930s to keep Jews out, to keeping Asians out. The smoking gun is how the admissions committee's ratings for “personality” differ so much from alumni volunteer interviewers.

Agreed and for similar reasons imo, to guard against admiting too many students with no ambition beyond a comfy middle class lifestyle.

What makes you think that? Stereotyping perhaps?

In the case of Jews, they can hardly be called unambitious given the number of writers and scientists they produced.

In the case of Asians, ambitious engineering, scientific and business persons do not seem to be short supply.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#133

Post by extra88 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:18 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #88

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what basis? The Ivy League schools understand that admission is a ticket to a comfy-but-historically-and-culturally-insignificant middle-class life. Their goal is to guard against applicants seeeking that and to look for those who will go further. It's not unlike VCs who guard against investing in founders who will take the first acquisition offer they see so they can score a few million and live comfortably. That…

You're making an argument of rational self interest, which doesn't at all speak to morality. Imagine a company that maintains a culture of grooming executives through the ranks. After reviewing their data, they find that more women than men leave to start families. Are they then justified to hire only men, or more subtly divert resources to only groom male junior employees? OK, so an Ivy League school wants to contin…

Asian students make up a much greater percentage of Harvard College students than the percentage of Asians in the U.S. population, that doesn't sound like a racist outcome.

What's most frustrating is this case is a stalking horse for white racists who want to eliminate race as a consideration to keep higher education predominantly white and therefore economically advantaged.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#134

Post by nindalf » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #90

bigcostooge wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can answer that by asking yourself another question: who at Harvard understands supply and demand?

A lottery is such an obvious solution that we can only conclude that the people who developed the Harvard admission process are irredeemable racists.

A lottery appears to be a reasonable solution but it has a problem. The admissions system has two objectives - selecting students according to criteria that Harvard deems important and second, giving the public perception of selecting quality students. If it was publicly known that getting was a lottery, then the perception of quality takes a hit.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#135

Post by paidleaf » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

privateSFacct wrote: post #14

The stats on how they scored asians were pretty incredible. Asian personalities were only 2 or better at the top decile (top 10%), african-americans scored 2 or better 8 deciles in (top 80%, only the worst 20% didn't score 2 or better). Personalities were scored on: likability, helpfulness, courage, kindness, positive personality, people like to be around them, the person is widely respected. Harvard insists this was…

> Harvard insists this was unbiased, but it's pretty incredible that Asians score so low on these measures and African-Americans so highly.

Considering asians are considered "model minorities" and the best "assimilated" minority group in the US, it does seem odd. Also considering harvard alumni interviewers generally rated asian personalities just as high as everyone else's, I wonder why there is such a divergence from american culture at large/alumni and admissions' officers?

I wonder if there are transcripts or video recordings of interviews and a methodology these admissions officers used.

It would be great if harvard released all data ( minus identifying info ) and we could look through the dataset.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#136

Post by pc86 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

kart23 wrote: post #5

College admissions aren't about sat scores anymore. I graduated from high school this year, and know 2 people going to Harvard. It doesn't matter if you get perfect sat scores, it matters about what you do outside of school, and whether you spend all your time studying or actually doing something that will contribute to society. Numbers just aren't enough to admit students by, since if they admitted everyone with per…

Apparently it also matters where your parents went to school, what your father or mother does for a living, and what color your skin is.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#137

Post by extra88 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

nopinsight wrote: post #87

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally they want a mix of people like that; people skilled in sports, music, various arts; and some people TRULY gifted intellectually (actually doing research or showing strong promise to). They also need to admit enough rich kids to satisfy the annual giving org and make sure enough poor kids and black and latino kids get in to meet liberal/progressive racial goals.

Interesting and thank you for the reply. So they aim to admit people truly outstanding at something or with the potential to do so and strong evidence to back that up. I guess they might miss out on some exceptional generalists who tend to shine a bit later in life.

Of course. No process is perfect and there are more exceptional people than there are spaces for them at Harvard or at all the Ivies.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#138

Post by paidleaf » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

grandinj wrote: post #132

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed and for similar reasons imo, to guard against admiting too many students with no ambition beyond a comfy middle class lifestyle.

What makes you think that? Stereotyping perhaps? In the case of Jews, they can hardly be called unambitious given the number of writers and scientists they produced. In the case of Asians, ambitious engineering, scientific and business persons do not seem to be short supply.

> What makes you think that? Stereotyping perhaps?

Look at the quasi racist stuff this guy wrote. He obviously doesn't like asians for some reason.

"Harvard and the other Ivies don't want to keep out asian people. They want to keep out boring, myopic applicants who spend all day studying to achieve the grades and scores they have and show little sign of interest in contributing to the outside world beyond getting a well-paying job as a lawyer or doctor and raising a family comfortably."

The guy claims to have been an admissions officer at an ivy league school. Doesn't seem likely.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#139

Post by pc86 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #38

xkcdefgh wrote: post #30

Why is SAT so ridiculously easy that thousands have perfect score?

There's a lot of kids taking it, and it needs to be able to differentiate kids in a country with very wide ranging abilities. If you made it harder there'd probably be a whole load of people bunched up at the bottom.

Okay serious question, which has the larger negative societal impact - making it harder to differentiate between the top tenth of a percent of college applicants, or making it harder to differentiate between the bottom ten percent of college applicants?

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#140

Post by extra88 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #114

cycrutchfield wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be some geographic bias there because California’s Asian population is much higher than the US as a whole.

I would be interested to see if there is any bias toward state of residence for a school as widely known and respected as CalTech.

Of course there is. Harvard has a disproportionate number of students from New England, and more specifically Massachusetts, as well. Plenty of smart kids don't want to be too far from home or travel a long way to an unfamiliar environment.

As for CalTech's rep, I'm just one person on the East Coast and wasn't a Tech-type student but I forget it exists all the time. If someone asked me to name a West Coast school to compare to MIT, "Stanford" would be all I could think of.