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‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#81

Post by IvyAdmisions »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #80
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. There's a belief at the very top of these schools that they only want so many people leading one-dimensional lives focused on entering upper middle class trades like law and medicine.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that history will judge this line of argument poorly.

On what basis?

The Ivy League schools understand that admission is a ticket to a comfy-but-historically-and-culturally-insignificant middle-class life. Their goal is to guard against applicants seeeking that and to look for those who will go further.

It's not unlike VCs who guard against investing in founders who will take the first acquisition offer they see so they can score a few million and live comfortably. That outcome does nothing for them.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#82

Post by [deleted] »

speedplane wrote: post #23

I understand the outrage of racial discrimination in this case, but I'm saddened over the lack of outrage over Harvard's self-described "Z-List" students who get into the school solely based on their family's money and power. No one is suing Harvard over the fact that you can buy your way in. We've come to accept that money and legacy power provides access and opportunity regardless of merit. If that more fundamental…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#83

Post by kanel_ »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #81
reitzensteinm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that history will judge this line of argument poorly.

On what basis? The Ivy League schools understand that admission is a ticket to a comfy-but-historically-and-culturally-insignificant middle-class life. Their goal is to guard against applicants seeeking that and to look for those who will go further. It's not unlike VCs who guard against investing in founders who will take the first acquisition offer they see so they can score a few million and live comfortably. That…

Tsk tsk, of course we should restrict those who seek upper middle class lives in law and medicine, when clearly we should instead be selecting for upper-upper middle class livelihoods in I-banking and, once in a blue moon, management consulting!

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#84

Post by vinceguidry »

This sort of thing reminds me of the process to select and promote generals. With veritable mountains of qualified candidates, the selection process has to invariably use political methods in order to produce a desired outcome.

These processes were completely political until the ancient Greeks, who experimented with things like randomness to grant power to lower-class citizens. Some of my favorite videos on YouTube describe these political methods.

Randomness seems to have fallen out of favor ever since, I think it might have died with the Romans.

But imagine Harvard actually making public policy that they're just going to randomly select the the top applicants. They still won't be able to shape the demographics the way they want. Ensuring that they get to define the concept of a diverse student body is so important for them that they're fighting tooth and nail to preserve it.

I stated the last time this came up that this was an existential issue for Harvard and the whole concept of the Ivy League. But now I see it as a public policy and individual rights issue. Should Harvard have the right to shape their student body demographically? And if not, what does that make Harvard? What distinguishes the Ivy League from other universities? Obviously Harvard is of the opinion that this is a bet-the-company moment for them.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#85

Post by bigcostooge »

danieltillett wrote: post #71
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #68

From an earlier thread: I was a college admissions officer for a few years and am familiar with the process at the top Ivies. The outcome is racist but there's no intent to be racist. Imagine your job is to create the best possible 2000-student freshman class for Harvard from the 40,000 students who apply. You review the applications and notice to your horror that 600-1000 of them all have perfect or near perfect tes…

Umm they are out to discriminate against Asian people. More seriously if your aim is to limit the number of people applying for premed then limit the number of pre-med slots and let the applicants know. If demand is greater than supply then just put everyone over the acceptable score into a pool and draw out at random. Why resort to outright racism to solve a problem of supply and demand?

I think you can answer that by asking yourself another question: who at Harvard understands supply and demand?

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#86

Post by zimablue »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #76
reitzensteinm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't discriminate against asian people, just their problematic culture.

Correct. There's a belief at the very top of these schools that they only want so many people leading one-dimensional lives focused on entering upper middle class trades like law and medicine.

This is just classism dressed up as racism. People who don't want to enter the upper middle class and have strong extracurriculars are just the already upper middle class/upper class. The professions like law/medicine are what the lower classes shoot for, trying to be a journalist or a political player is the domain of the higher classes.

"These people work too hard for too low aspirations, we need more people who work less hard but have higher aspirations"

Those people are the rich and powerful.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#87

Post by nopinsight »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #78
nopinsight wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So out of curiosity, what would be some optimal sets of characteristics for being admitted to top Ivies? Are they largely looking for people with ‘change-the-world’, ‘make-a-big-impact’ potentials and great academic records (with the former being the more important criterion)? Or something else? I expect these criteria can be described in words and it is not only learned through apprenticeship as supposedly there are…

Generally they want a mix of people like that; people skilled in sports, music, various arts; and some people TRULY gifted intellectually (actually doing research or showing strong promise to). They also need to admit enough rich kids to satisfy the annual giving org and make sure enough poor kids and black and latino kids get in to meet liberal/progressive racial goals.

Interesting and thank you for the reply. So they aim to admit people truly outstanding at something or with the potential to do so and strong evidence to back that up.

I guess they might miss out on some exceptional generalists who tend to shine a bit later in life.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#88

Post by reitzensteinm »

IvyAdmisions wrote: post #81
reitzensteinm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that history will judge this line of argument poorly.

On what basis? The Ivy League schools understand that admission is a ticket to a comfy-but-historically-and-culturally-insignificant middle-class life. Their goal is to guard against applicants seeeking that and to look for those who will go further. It's not unlike VCs who guard against investing in founders who will take the first acquisition offer they see so they can score a few million and live comfortably. That…

You're making an argument of rational self interest, which doesn't at all speak to morality.

Imagine a company that maintains a culture of grooming executives through the ranks. After reviewing their data, they find that more women than men leave to start families. Are they then justified to hire only men, or more subtly divert resources to only groom male junior employees?

OK, so an Ivy League school wants to continue with policies with racist outcomes because it's better for the school. It's probably going to stay legal for quite some time, so they'll be free to continue. But they shouldn't receive a dime of government money, and will deserve the scorn they'll be viewed with in history.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#89

Post by golergka »

zimablue wrote: post #86
IvyAdmisions wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. There's a belief at the very top of these schools that they only want so many people leading one-dimensional lives focused on entering upper middle class trades like law and medicine.

This is just classism dressed up as racism. People who don't want to enter the upper middle class and have strong extracurriculars are just the already upper middle class/upper class. The professions like law/medicine are what the lower classes shoot for, trying to be a journalist or a political player is the domain of the higher classes. "These people work too hard for too low aspirations, we need more people who wo…

I description is very precise, but the tone implies a value judgement - is it intentional?

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#90

Post by danieltillett »

bigcostooge wrote: post #85
danieltillett wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm they are out to discriminate against Asian people. More seriously if your aim is to limit the number of people applying for premed then limit the number of pre-med slots and let the applicants know. If demand is greater than supply then just put everyone over the acceptable score into a pool and draw out at random. Why resort to outright racism to solve a problem of supply and demand?

I think you can answer that by asking yourself another question: who at Harvard understands supply and demand?

A lottery is such an obvious solution that we can only conclude that the people who developed the Harvard admission process are irredeemable racists.
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