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China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#61

Post by simmanian »

Leary wrote: post #56
astebbin wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors Could you elaborate on this? My impression was that China has recently been bullying its neighbors, particularly Vietnam and to some extent the Philippines, over oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea. I can't imagine that's great for regional stability. I also wonder if many Americans would want China to take on…

Border tensions is only a minor part of life in Asia, one that is over reported by western media. Trade and infrastructure are more important concerns.

Could you elaborate? My take is that border tensions are definitely related to trade and it's not taken lightly by any Asian nation.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#62

Post by zapita »

sykhic wrote: post #31
zapita wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me the canary in the coal mine event was Gulf War 1 when the US went around asking other countries to help pay for our war. On the contrary I would say Gulf War 1 was the last example of the US empire operating as designed: a large coalition of westernized nations implicitly following the leadership in the US, in a network of institutions and alliances entirely built around the assumption of US supremacy. IMO t…

It's one thing asking allies to help fight a war and quite another asking them to pay for it. Japan famously was asked to pay $10 billion. It was disconcerting to see this as an American. Allegedly the war was worth fighting for America but I guess not worth America paying for it. We were willing to spill our blood but not open our wallets.

Ah, I didn’t remember that part of it. Added to my research list, thank you.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#64

Post by yread »

zapita wrote: post #21

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.

I think people are expecting some grand event and suddenly next minute China is dominating. Of course it's not going to be like that! US overtook UK in GDP per capita in 1860s yet it took another 50 years or more before the dominance became clear and 100 years before it became overwhelming

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#65

Post by munificent »

frogfuzion wrote: post #63

Serious question. What is the purpose of these articles? They seem to popup often on mainstream media sites. They have little or no information other than obvious stuff about belt and road, etc. Is the purpose just clicks? Does China generate clicks?

This article wasn't obvious to me. Not everyone knows what you know.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#66

Post by LyndsySimon »

yread wrote: post #64
zapita wrote: post #21

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.

I think people are expecting some grand event and suddenly next minute China is dominating. Of course it's not going to be like that! US overtook UK in GDP per capita in 1860s yet it took another 50 years or more before the dominance became clear and 100 years before it became overwhelming

As technology increases connections between actors in the global economy, speed of change seems to be increasing as well.

While I agree that the change won’t be a “grand event”, I don’t think it’ll take anywhere near half a century to happen. I expect it’ll happen over a decade or less and will largely be invisible to US consumers until the larger effects of our weakened currency become apparent.

I expect the rise of China as the dominant economy will be rapid and will take most people by surprise - barring, of course, a major downturn in either major economy.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#67

Post by eunoia »

okal wrote: post #55
eunoia wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have an interesting point about America's tendency to wrap itself in the mythos of the "Good Guy" and the inherent hypocrisy between our words and actions. But with that being said, I think you're making an unfair comparison between two countries. America has been the world hegemon for ~70 years. Have we abused that power at times? Absolutely. Would China abuse the same power given the opportunity? Most c…

> It would appear as though you're confusing relative weakness (i.e. their current inability to project their values upon the entire world) with virtue. Not quite. I think the idea I'm struggling to communicate is that China is an amoral force upon the world. They're not good. They're just far less bad, in my opinion, from a utilitarian perspective. > Taiwan and Tibet would like a word. Taiwan and mainland China both…

I think the crux of my disagreement comes from the fact while China may act "amorally" on the internal stage now, acquiring world hegemon level power will likely change that like it has changed every nation to come into that role before them. Doubly so because they already act (imo) immorally towards those they have current power over (their own people).

Remember that America was once a relatively "amoral" isolationist country too.

>Taiwan and mainland China both lay claim to each other, so that's a bit more complicated.

I'm not a scholar on China-Taiwan relations but as a betting man I'd put money on the PRoC not renouncing their claim on Taiwan even if the RoC renounced theirs on the mainland.

> but it says something that those are the only two examples that come to mind, wouldn't you agree?

Yes I would. But once again, China is a relatively recent major world power (in the modern era). Plenty of time to make enemies yet.

Obviously we're trading in a lot of speculation, opinion and bias here. Thank you for engaging in such a potentially heated discussion in such good faith.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#68

Post by dang »

naiveai wrote: post #10
swarnie_ wrote: post #4

I'm excited to see how the world will turn out with new leadership, absolutely nothing wrong with progress/trying new things.

Yes, and Xi Jinping is a good candidate for that leadership. Just because, oh, new leadership.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments, especially on divisive topics.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#69

Post by okal »

eunoia wrote: post #67
okal wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would appear as though you're confusing relative weakness (i.e. their current inability to project their values upon the entire world) with virtue. Not quite. I think the idea I'm struggling to communicate is that China is an amoral force upon the world. They're not good. They're just far less bad, in my opinion, from a utilitarian perspective. > Taiwan and Tibet would like a word. Taiwan and mainland China both…

I think the crux of my disagreement comes from the fact while China may act "amorally" on the internal stage now, acquiring world hegemon level power will likely change that like it has changed every nation to come into that role before them. Doubly so because they already act (imo) immorally towards those they have current power over (their own people). Remember that America was once a relatively "amoral" isolationi…

I understand where you're coming from. Interesting times we live in, regardless of outcome.

I enjoyed this discussion. Thank you.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#70

Post by merpnderp »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #34
zapita wrote: post #21

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.

Not sure I agree 9/11 was when it started. We were still cooperating with allies and other countries and still maintaining non-war stuff. Trump is when the bridge burning started and when America really lost its stature on the world stage. If it was declining since 9/11, trump took that gradual trend and sent it straight down.

Exactly the same sort of FUD was stated when Bush was president. Trump is strengthening NATO, is in the process of renegotiating several trade treaties which appear to be well received by all sides, and has made some unprecedented progress with N. Korea, while building a coalition of Arab states to counter Iran and Russia in the Middle East, plus putting pressure on Europe to lessen their dependance on Russian energy.

I'm sure I'll be down voted for stating facts, but that's just the times - people hate facts.

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