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China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

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Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#51

Post by okal »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #40
okal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't treat other people better. Chinese foreign policy is generally indifferent to the politics of their trade partners. China doesn't intervene, for better or worse, in the running of other countries. There are no Chinese analogs to America's unambiguously disastrous adventures in Iran (Mosaddegh), Iraq, Afghanistan, Apartheid South Africa, Chile (Allende), Vietnam etc. America's main success, in my opinion, h…

You are partially right, but China does seek significant control of the world outside of China’s borders. The troubles surrounding a major port at Sri Lanka (to say nothing about the South China Sea) is indicative of what a Chinese world order might look like. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...

Absolutely. My own country's main sea port faces the same threat, because our government has been pigging out on easy Chinese credit, and I still believe that a Chinese global hegemony would be preferable (from a utilitarian standpoint) to the American one. What China is pursuing in a lot of the "Global South" is nothing short of soft colonization, and is the subject of a lot of debate/thinkpieces/Twitter outrage in these parts. It might tell you something that so many of us, after looking at what's on offer, would still rather give this a try than maintain the status quo.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#52

Post by grezql »

frockington wrote: post #30
zapita wrote: post #21

I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.

As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

[flagged]

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#53

Post by okal »

lliamander wrote: post #43
okal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't treat other people better. Chinese foreign policy is generally indifferent to the politics of their trade partners. China doesn't intervene, for better or worse, in the running of other countries. There are no Chinese analogs to America's unambiguously disastrous adventures in Iran (Mosaddegh), Iraq, Afghanistan, Apartheid South Africa, Chile (Allende), Vietnam etc. America's main success, in my opinion, h…

> China doesn't intervene, for better or worse, in the running of other countries I'm not sure Taiwan agrees with you. One could also argue about Tibet. I also remember hearing they are fairly involved in Africa, but I don't recall the exact details (so I could be off there).

That's an oversimplification. Both the ROC, and the PRC lay claim to each other. I agree with you on Tibet. There's no defending that. I'm not a fan of Chinese foreign or domestic policy. I still think it's vastly preferable (for the vast majority of people outside their own borders) to American.

I'm Kenyan. I know the extent of their involvement in my country. My statements are grounded in that experience.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#54

Post by jhayward »

forgotagain95 wrote: post #32
jbrun wrote: post #2

If you are interested in a more detailed portrait of the shifts happening, this book is excellent. If the US loses its technological advantage and its reserve currency status, it is very difficult to know what will happen. https://www.amazon.com/Shadows-American-Century-Decline-Disp... China's biggest problem will be demographics, second only to their political system. US will likely due to tax / deficit issues, not…

I am curious who is the analog to the french aristocrats. With 95% of the tax burdened by those earning more than $50k, it is crucial to define this. The median income is roughly about this value as well, so basically nearly all the tax is burdened by the top 50% earning populace. If you raise the bar further ($200k), its still nearly 60% of the taxes being paid by 5-10% of the populace. So I am not sure I buy that t…

I suspect this is a disingenuous question, given that almost anyone who has the above statistics also knows that they are misleading, and even false, in the context. The minutes old account age is also suspect.

High income earners pay a vanishingly low percentage of their income as tax, and it is almost all discretionary income, not income they need to merely subsist.

Low income earners pay an increasingly higher proportion of their income as tax (which is not predominantly income tax, rather things like sales, property (directly or indirectly), or ad valorum taxes.

The analog to the French aristocrats are those incredibly wealthy people who, like the former aristocracy, receive enormous income from rents and other unearned sources. That's dead simple obvious to anyone who isn't trying to live out some kind of fantasy-based ideology.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#55

Post by okal »

eunoia wrote: post #44
okal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't treat other people better. Chinese foreign policy is generally indifferent to the politics of their trade partners. China doesn't intervene, for better or worse, in the running of other countries. There are no Chinese analogs to America's unambiguously disastrous adventures in Iran (Mosaddegh), Iraq, Afghanistan, Apartheid South Africa, Chile (Allende), Vietnam etc. America's main success, in my opinion, h…

I think you have an interesting point about America's tendency to wrap itself in the mythos of the "Good Guy" and the inherent hypocrisy between our words and actions. But with that being said, I think you're making an unfair comparison between two countries. America has been the world hegemon for ~70 years. Have we abused that power at times? Absolutely. Would China abuse the same power given the opportunity? Most c…

> It would appear as though you're confusing relative weakness (i.e. their current inability to project their values upon the entire world) with virtue.

Not quite. I think the idea I'm struggling to communicate is that China is an amoral force upon the world. They're not good. They're just far less bad, in my opinion, from a utilitarian perspective.

> Taiwan and Tibet would like a word.

Taiwan and mainland China both lay claim to each other, so that's a bit more complicated. You're right about Tibet. Most of my statements are, I'll happily admit, generalizations, but it says something that those are the only two examples that come to mind, wouldn't you agree?

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#56

Post by Leary »

astebbin wrote: post #45
frockington wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

>I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors Could you elaborate on this? My impression was that China has recently been bullying its neighbors, particularly Vietnam and to some extent the Philippines, over oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea. I can't imagine that's great for regional stability. I also wonder if many Americans would want China to take on…

Border tensions is only a minor part of life in Asia, one that is over reported by western media. Trade and infrastructure are more important concerns.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#57

Post by paradite »

eunoia wrote: post #44
okal wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't treat other people better. Chinese foreign policy is generally indifferent to the politics of their trade partners. China doesn't intervene, for better or worse, in the running of other countries. There are no Chinese analogs to America's unambiguously disastrous adventures in Iran (Mosaddegh), Iraq, Afghanistan, Apartheid South Africa, Chile (Allende), Vietnam etc. America's main success, in my opinion, h…

I think you have an interesting point about America's tendency to wrap itself in the mythos of the "Good Guy" and the inherent hypocrisy between our words and actions. But with that being said, I think you're making an unfair comparison between two countries. America has been the world hegemon for ~70 years. Have we abused that power at times? Absolutely. Would China abuse the same power given the opportunity? Most c…

> Taiwan and Tibet would like a word.

Until Taiwan stops claiming itself to be China, it's an internal affair (or rather a civil war) within "China".

I don't want to go into a long debate over Tibet, but I suggest reading wikipedia articles on it if you haven't done so, to get a more holistic view of the timeline.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#58

Post by Leary »

grezql wrote: post #52
frockington wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

[flagged]

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/14/chapter-2-chinas-image/

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#59

Post by golem14 »

Leary wrote: post #7
jbrun wrote: post #2

If you are interested in a more detailed portrait of the shifts happening, this book is excellent. If the US loses its technological advantage and its reserve currency status, it is very difficult to know what will happen. https://www.amazon.com/Shadows-American-Century-Decline-Disp... China's biggest problem will be demographics, second only to their political system. US will likely due to tax / deficit issues, not…

America has a number of enduring advantages: 1. Its geography means it's impervious to conventional invasions. 2. Its embracing culture will attract more immigrants. 3. It is an offshoot of western civilization and therefore has natural allies in Europe. China's advantages are: 1. It has a population that is 3-4 times the size of the US. 2. Its economy is still underdeveloped, therefore economic growth is a lot easie…

Pro.3 and pro.2 is being shot to pieces by Trump right now.

Pro.1 does also apply to China I would think.

I'm not sure con.1 is that much of an advantage. other than a larger national market.

Re: China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order

#60

Post by hupe_ »

grezql wrote: post #52
frockington wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

[flagged]

This us VS them mentality, amplified/reinforced by social media, 24*7 news, celebs, politicians et al is doing the most unnecessary damage.
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