Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities • Hacker News Board

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#181

Post by vixen99 » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:01 AM UTC

thesagan wrote: post #143

jhbadger wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not the same as Stalin, but he certainly caused him. Marx was basically the founder of a secular religion and like the theistic kind, religions attract scoundrels because they see it as a way to power. Stalin himself studied to be a priest before he changed religions.

Marx wasn't the first, and he wasn't the last to argue for a community/worker owned and operated economic system. He's just the best known. He might have co-written written a manifesto, but had he not another would very likely have. It was a long time coming. But that's really besides my point. Importantly, Marx did not advocate for a totalitarian political regime. That's a big deal, because that's a defining element…

Karl Marx (Capital) “You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property ..."

Did a military underling write that?

Try asking anyone at all what their views are on a suggested policy saying "we will make it impossible for you to own private property!" It's delusional to imagine that such a program could not be accomplished without a totalitarian revolution.

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#182

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

chongli wrote: post #91

donbright wrote: post #57

You know what's funny is how many topics on 'hacker news' are basically questions of sociology or anthropology or economics or psychology. If you could make some kind of AI that would color the comments here based on what academic discipline they were most closely linked to, I think it would just be a sea of colors that fall under the 'humanities' or 'liberal arts' umbrella. It's not that people aren't deeply interes…

The biggest difference between STEM and everything else is the issue of externalities. Heck, even within STEM you see a spectrum based on externalities. What do I mean? Major in biology and do life-saving research. Unless you can translate that into a biotech patent (or better yet, a biotech company) you won't see much in the way of compensation. The same goes for the humanities and much of the social sciences. Unles…

Are you saying that engineering has no benefit to society?

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#183

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #118

InTheArena wrote: post #90

I think every engineer or applied scientists should be expected to take a reasonable "liberal" education subset - including history, literature and law. I know that this is very much not in vogue with the latest group-think in college, but I also believe that humanities should master at least basic calculus. Not because you may need to do a differential or integral, but rather because it teaches you to think differen…

I agree very much. It has always stung a nerve with me, the fact that if you are a scientist with no interest or knowledge in humanities or arts you get (rightfully) labeled an ignorant and a reductionist obsessed solely with his science; yet the reverse, if you have a background in the humanities and know nothing about science or mathematics, is somehow okay or even celebrated in certain circles. You can proudly dec…

[deleted]

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#184

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

Chathamization wrote: post #129

InTheArena wrote: post #90

I think every engineer or applied scientists should be expected to take a reasonable "liberal" education subset - including history, literature and law. I know that this is very much not in vogue with the latest group-think in college, but I also believe that humanities should master at least basic calculus. Not because you may need to do a differential or integral, but rather because it teaches you to think differen…

> liberal educations are now viewed as tools of oppression rather then as the minimum expectation for a well-informed citizen. I often hear people say that a college education is about opening the mind, being able to think critically, being able to challenge one's own beliefs, etc. But then I often find the people make those claims not even able to consider the possibility that many people people achieve that without…

I've never understood how a liberal education was supposed to enable critical thinking. In my experience, a STEM education enabled it, because while you can argue any point of view in liberal arts, you cannot pretend that the bridge you designed didn't fall down when it did. You're forced to deal with reality which doesn't care about your biases, fallacies, and dearly held misconceptions.

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#185

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #131

InTheArena wrote: post #90

I think every engineer or applied scientists should be expected to take a reasonable "liberal" education subset - including history, literature and law. I know that this is very much not in vogue with the latest group-think in college, but I also believe that humanities should master at least basic calculus. Not because you may need to do a differential or integral, but rather because it teaches you to think differen…

> I think every engineer or applied scientists should be expected to take a reasonable "liberal" education subset - including history, literature and law. I know that this is very much not in vogue with the latest group-think in college, but I also believe that humanities should master at least basic calculus That can work. I believe that because you've just described MIT and Caltech. MIT requires everyone to take at…

[deleted]

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#186

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:28 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #140

cncrnd wrote: post #120

Honestly, the majority of humanities students I've interacted with have been uninspired and unmotivated. I took a good deal of humanities classes and more often than not comments were uninformed and presentations poor quality. And what do you expect? These students come in at 18 years old, straight out of high school. You put them in college and they want to do the least work possible. And since it's all papers, ther…

I taught an engineering course for one semester at a Big Ten university with a prestigious engineering school, many years ago. And I also work with young engineers who have recently graduated from college. I'm not sure that all of my students and / or colleagues cared very much about the actual subject matter that they were studying, e.g., the math and theory. There was a conventional wisdom shared amongst students,…

You can always tell a loser EE grad - he carries around one of those cards that has these formulae on it:

    V = I * R
    I = V / R
    R = V / I

I.e. they don't understand the most basic equation in electronics, nor algebra. But they have EE degrees! Don't ask me how this is possible, I'm as baffled as you are.

When they "design" a circuit, they pull it out of a book. If it doesn't work right, they try randomly varying the values of the components until it sort of works. (Instead of calculating what the correct values should be.)

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#187

Post by ozim » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 9:45 AM UTC

ellius wrote: post #96

seibelj wrote: post #8

I was a double major in CS and Latin, and once I asked my Latin advisor about grad school for Latin. I didn’t intend on going, I was just curious about what she would say as a tenured Latin professor at a good university. The look on her face when I asked was complete shock and she went on a rant about how it was the dumbest idea ever. She told me how she was going on sabbatical to write a book that only 30 people wo…

My conversation with two of my professors pretty much sealed my future as far as getting away from a history PhD. I did a Master's, and I'm glad I tried it, but when I asked the two profs I was closest with whether it was worth continuing with all of the negative things I had read and experienced, they both gave a very clear "we aren't supposed to say this, but get the fuck out while you still can." It's really unfor…

I get impression that people who are not that wealthy try to get into things that should be reserved for "high society". With Pareto distribution of wealth, most of us are just plebs. Of course we are not as poor as plebs in medieval but still we are vulnerable, one bad accident and professor is out of money and in debt.

If you are millionaire or from rich family you can spend all day reading ancient philosophers. That was what high society was doing in earlier days, they had money so they could "waste" time being unproductive.

Then you get all those kids and their parents who want to study something like philosophy. They feel like they are rich and their kids deserve degree. But brutal truth is if you are making $50k a year you might feel comfortable but it is still far from being rich. There are people who buy cars each year for that amount of money.

In the end it is not all about money as people say, but stories like parent comment shows the truth, first make your money and then if you have time and possibility follow your passion. Which is easier for rich because they already have money.

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#188

Post by intended » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:26 AM UTC

This is going to accelerate.

Indians/Chinese live in a world exactly like this - where all degrees MUST be STEM or you are a useless waste/burden to society.

I dont know what America is doing, but people left my country specifically because there was a better life and more vibrant educational culture in the States.

But ever since no child left behind, and the collapse of jobs which support a wide form of intellectual pursuits, America seems to be recreating the same intellectual ecosystem collapse you see here.

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#189

Post by GlennS » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:36 AM UTC

AdamM12 wrote: post #108

InTheArena wrote: post #90

I think every engineer or applied scientists should be expected to take a reasonable "liberal" education subset - including history, literature and law. I know that this is very much not in vogue with the latest group-think in college, but I also believe that humanities should master at least basic calculus. Not because you may need to do a differential or integral, but rather because it teaches you to think differen…

I'd say the anti-intellectual authoritarianism has emanated from campuses. That being said when I first went to college I also held the view that mandating some level of humanities was important to be "well-rounded", and on some level still think this is true, but I've since soured on the people who say we need more B-school & Engineering schools students taking these classes to promote so called "critical thinking"…

I actually think that my writing improved more during my CS degree than my history degree.

In CS there was an emphasis on clarity, succinctness, and thinking about how well you've communicated your ideas to your intended audience.

Having said that, maybe the large volumes of writing practice from history made me receptive to those lessons.

There were also a couple of history professors who were very good at cutting through overly flowery and insufficiently meaningful writing with comments like "where is your evidence for this?".

Re: Mea culpa: there is a crisis in the humanities

#190

Post by xigma » Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #54

rdtsc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it better they are honest rather than set unrealistic expectations that students will regret years later.

It's one thing to be realistic about the economics of pursuing a field, and another to be defeatist or outright dismissive of the idea itself. Edit: I should say that my professors came off more as defeatist than dismissive. I was never told that I couldn't study Philosophy at the graduate level.

The thing is, when you are young and idealistic, you will say to yourself things like "I don't care about the money!", which is probably what these people told themselves.

These people are disillusioned and so will the future you be, but your present you has to make the decision. It's incredibly valuable that they're being honest to you and to themselves.