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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#171
post #99
post #15

I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." The Trump and Brexit elections were for some people a kind of Luddite revolt -- not against technology per se but against globalization. This was a revolt by the working classes of the developed world against a globalization process that is substantially impoverishing them. I can't say I…

If America was great before 1973, it certainly was only great for white men. Ask a black person just how great America was before 1973. Or a woman. Mexicans. Chinese. Native Americans. MAGA is a racist slogan that only appeals to racist whites and idiots who don't know American history.

Think of it this way. Had wages continued to track productivity gains and the black white wage gap closed black workers would be making twice as much.

If the trends hollowing out the middle class continue social justice won't matter. If the plane is going down does it matter if you have an aisle or a window seat?

Re: That sinking feeling

#172
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. I'm not sure why you think they don't. Personal bankruptcies dropped by half since the ACA passed, and health care costs were one of the leading causes of pe…

The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause: loss of solid well paying jobs with upward mobility.

Re: That sinking feeling

#173
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. I'm not sure why you think they don't. Personal bankruptcies dropped by half since the ACA passed, and health care costs were one of the leading causes of pe…

The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause: loss of solid well paying jobs with upward mobility.

> The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause

Given the enormous cost of helping even a bit, I would expect affecting the root cause would have netted the entire party a damnatio memoriae.

Re: That sinking feeling

#174
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the UK could have a referendum on leaving the WTO.

That really would put us in the same collection as a few failed states and minor dictatorships. Being outside the WTO would be _even more_ inconvenient.

Agreed. I'm surprised Rees-Mogg isn't advocating it...

Re: That sinking feeling

#175
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chief problem with Brexit is the ambiguity of the referendum question. "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" The problem with this is that if you interpret it literally, the outcome is to leave the European Union, but remain in the EEA (single market), potentially also the ECJ and a number of other treaties. This is why so many commentators have argued that…

That's a very good point, thanks. But just in this thread, I see many other arguments to invalidate the vote: * Arguments that economics make Remain "right" (assuming economic considerations overrule votes; if economists proved the economic thing was to kill one half the population, does that mean that's the "right" choice?) * Arguments that since the vote, Leavers have died while Remainers have come of age. This kin…

I haven't combed the entire thread, so I can't speak for everyone, but I'd like to address some of your points more generally.

Before I begin: thanks for the calm and reasoned discourse - I've found it difficult to have open discussions like these with Brexit supporters, mostly because I don't know many.

Firstly, I think many making these arguments aren't suggesting the vote should be ignored, simply that it resulted in a bad choice being made. Criticising the result of a vote isn't an attack on democracy in itself; for example, I disagree with the result of the Alternative Vote referendum, which would have actually made our electoral system more democratic.

"Arguments that since the vote, Leavers have died while Remainers have come of age." - again, I don't think this invalidates the vote; it's just an observation about demographics. It's also worth noting that it's not anti-democratic to suggest holding another vote when either the demographics or the facts/information at-hand has changed.

"That the margins were too close and this somehow invalidates the vote." - curiously, referendums that decide on whether to change something almost always require a 60% majority vote for change in order to succeed. This was the case with the Alternative Vote referendum (where it didn't matter), but strangely not with the Brexit referendum (where it did). The reason for this is to partly account for the large number of people who don't vote; most of these are assumed to be happy with the status quo.

"That the public is not qualified to vote on this question." - it's kind of a given that the public wasn't qualified to vote on this; just as we're not qualified to vote on most matters of parliament. We have a "Parliamentary Democracy", which means we elect representatives to vote on issues on our behalf. The concept being that, since it's their full-time job, they have ample time to research the issues and to better understand them than we can. It's perplexing to many that an issue as complicated as Brexit was put to the public when so many MPs are unable to fully understand it.

Also, the Brexit referendum is not legally binding. The government had the opportunity to ensure that it was, but decided against it. Technically speaking, the government/parliament are free to completely ignore the result. The reason they don't isn't that it'd be illegal, but that it would be political suicide, due to the demographic nature of the Leave vote.

"That the result is invalidated by outside meddling." - there's a fair bit of anger at how corrupt the Leave campaign was: from blatantly misrepresenting the truth to breaking electoral law on spending limits. They did this because they knew they could get away with it: once the vote was over, the organisation would no longer exist, and there would be no-one to punish. Sure, you can level some fines against a few individuals, but most of their behaviour will go unpunished. The only thing anyone can think of that would discourage this behaviour in the future is to re-run the referendum, but even then, it's not a perfect solution. Their deeds cannot be undone.

Re: That sinking feeling

#176
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause: loss of solid well paying jobs with upward mobility.

> The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause Given the enormous cost of helping even a bit, I would expect affecting the root cause would have netted the entire party a damnatio memoriae .

If done right fixing the jobs problem should be a net positive for the economy.

I don't think it's malice. I think it's that most political leadership (of both parties) lives in coastal cities that haven't felt the pain to anywhere near the extent of the interior. They also tend to be immersed in aggregate statistics that don't tell the whole story. GDP might be going up but break it down by region, calculate the Gini coefficient, etc. and you see that there are huge problems.

Re: That sinking feeling

#177
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause Given the enormous cost of helping even a bit, I would expect affecting the root cause would have netted the entire party a damnatio memoriae .

If done right fixing the jobs problem should be a net positive for the economy. I don't think it's malice. I think it's that most political leadership (of both parties) lives in coastal cities that haven't felt the pain to anywhere near the extent of the interior. They also tend to be immersed in aggregate statistics that don't tell the whole story. GDP might be going up but break it down by region, calculate the Gin…

I meant more cost in political capital.
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