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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#131

Post by pjc50 »

adamrezich wrote: post #127
BerislavLopac wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THERE WAS NO VOTE. First, the famous referendum was advisory, and in no way obligated the government to do anything. Technically it was just slightly serious than a public opinion poll. Second, the question was too unclear, and it was not clear what will happen in the case of a "leave" vote. Third, the result was too inconclusive -- a 4% difference is too small to base such strong decisions on, especially after such…

Out of curiosity, can you envision saying the result was too close to call, the campaign was too short, the public was too uninformed, etc., if the result of the referendum was "Remain?"

The rightwing press would absolutely be doing that on your behalf if it was a narrow loss. But - and this is the important thing - we wouldn't now be discussing stockpiling food and medicine.

Re: That sinking feeling

#132

Post by pjc50 »

lmm wrote: post #120
BerislavLopac wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his party is duty-bound to implement its results And what are the results? To leave with no deal? In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was.

> And what are the results? To leave with no deal? To leave the European Union one way or another, since that was the question they asked and the answer they got. With whatever deal they believe best for the country and its people, which may or may not end up being no deal. > In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was. The government's legal obligations come from its duty to the people, not the other…

> The government's legal obligations come from its duty to the people

There is no such obligation in UK law. Partly because we're a constitutional monarchy.

Re: That sinking feeling

#133

Post by wilsonnb2 »

nopriorarrests wrote: post #117
wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

Before diving into into policy details, you need to consider the bigger picture. Hillary was promising, generally speaking, third term of Obama. He actually endorsed her, and there was little disagreement between the two. If people were unhappy about two Obama terms (and it seems they were, in large enough numbers), it was a losing proposition from the start, and details about prescription drugs and tax cuts for smal…

Obama's approval rating was above 50% for his last year in office, so I wouldn't say that people were particularly unhappy with him. Honestly, I think he could have won a 3rd term had he been legally allowed to run.

Hillary was unpopular in the voter's eyes for reasons that had little to do with Obama, although their association didn't really help her.

The fact that she was a woman, the fact that she was seen as a member of a political family (despite not coming from a multi-generation political family like the Kennedy or Bush families), the fact that the conservatives of this country had been running propaganda against her for almost 25 years, and the fact that she isn't particularly charismatic all hurt her in the public eye far more than her association with and similarity to Obama.

Which is deeply unfortunate, because none of those things have anything to do with what makes a good President. Perhaps someday we will realize that what makes a good candidate and what makes a good President are not the same.

Re: That sinking feeling

#134

Post by pjc50 »

trocadero wrote: post #95
pjc50 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much the tariffs as the customs clearance per se. Everyone seems to have forgotten that transporting goods across a border has VAT implications, and if you don't check and aren't part of the same VAT area there's a huge opportunity for "carousel fraud". And the UK is absolutely not set up to cope with customs checks on every vehicle crossing the Channel. See "operation stack". Oh, and all our internationa…

>It's not so much the tariffs as the customs clearance per se. Everyone seems to have forgotten that transporting goods across a border has VAT implications, and if you don't check and aren't part of the same VAT area there's a huge opportunity for "carousel fraud". That would give the EU reason to block imports from the UK. It doesn't give much of a reason for the UK to block imports from the EU. So there's no reaso…

Even if the UK decides to accept fraud and have a customs-free border, shipping is bi-directional; once the tailbacks start, lorries start parking up on the M20. Drivers are going to be reluctant to cross the channel if they can't get back again in a timely fashion.

(Are EU truck licenses valid in the UK after Brexit? And vice versa? Who knows?)

Re: That sinking feeling

#135

Post by pjc50 »

osullivj wrote: post #109
EliRivers wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that falls foul of WTO rules. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-are-t...

I guess the UK could have a referendum on leaving the WTO.

That really would put us in the same collection as a few failed states and minor dictatorships. Being outside the WTO would be _even more_ inconvenient.

Re: That sinking feeling

#136

Post by adamrezich »

pjc50 wrote: post #131
adamrezich wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, can you envision saying the result was too close to call, the campaign was too short, the public was too uninformed, etc., if the result of the referendum was "Remain?"

The rightwing press would absolutely be doing that on your behalf if it was a narrow loss. But - and this is the important thing - we wouldn't now be discussing stockpiling food and medicine.

Why did you say "on your behalf?" I don't identify as right-wing and I am not a citizen of the UK

Re: That sinking feeling

#137

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

api wrote: post #115
wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. At this point the issue has been ignored for so long that people have lost all trust in the current establishment. They assume any promises from the current establishment are BS to get them to vote and will be forgotten right after the election. If your house has been on fire forever and is burned down to…

OK, bored of your bullshit now. Please fuck off.

Re: That sinking feeling

#138

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

coldtea wrote: post #21

> The Electoral Commission has uncovered evidence of electoral spending irregularities in the Leave.UK and Vote Leave campaigns serious enough to justify criminal investigation and possible prosecution Somehow those kinds of probes only conveniently find "irregularities" from the sides that the political elites are against... UK is supposedly a democracy (and thus such matters are to be decided by popular vote), but…

[dead]

Re: That sinking feeling

#139

Post by lmm »

pjc50 wrote: post #132
lmm wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what are the results? To leave with no deal? To leave the European Union one way or another, since that was the question they asked and the answer they got. With whatever deal they believe best for the country and its people, which may or may not end up being no deal. > In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was. The government's legal obligations come from its duty to the people, not the other…

> The government's legal obligations come from its duty to the people There is no such obligation in UK law. Partly because we're a constitutional monarchy.

Again, though, the law is a formalisation - an abstraction, a simplification - of people's relationships and behaviours. The Queen signs the laws written by the people's representatives not because she's legally obliged to but because she realises that it's her duty as head of state on a level far more fundamental than the written code of laws (and, ultimately, because if she didn't we'd have a second civil war).

Re: That sinking feeling

#140

Post by bharam »

hudibras wrote: post #56
bharam wrote: post #16

Any article which devolves to name calling within a few paragraphs (the Nazi stuff) lacks credibility and can safely be dismissed. It won't win anyone over and just looks like someone who is preaching to the choir.

It's called "hyperbole" and it's been a pretty standard rhetorical device for several thousand years.

Yes and when it's used in an argument it's a sign of weakness. It's similar to resorting to shouting in a verbal discussion.
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