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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#101

Post by wilsonnb2 »

adamrezich wrote: post #88
andruby wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should ask the people the same question again, now that they've had some time to inform themselves of what "leaving the EU" really means. I wouldn't bet any money on it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority would now vote Remain.

Why "should" the Brexit referendum get the special privilege of a "do-over?" I have no idea how the law works over there but surely that would set some sort of terrible precedent? I have zero skin in that game but the idea that people can espouse the virtues of democracy one minute only to make endless excuses as to why the result of a wholly democratic vote is wrong, invalid, or otherwise "deserves" a do-over the ne…

Nobody should trust the will of the people. That's why we have representative democracies and not direct democracies.

The Brexit referendum shouldn't get a special "do-over". Instead, the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will.

I'm sure a majority of the people have many other terrible ideas that they agree with, especially when you only need 51% of those who care enough to vote to constitute a "majority".

Trusting the will of the people is the philosophy of a lynch mob, not a government.

Re: That sinking feeling

#102

Post by mnm1 »

apeacox wrote: post #40
api wrote: post #15

I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." The Trump and Brexit elections were for some people a kind of Luddite revolt -- not against technology per se but against globalization. This was a revolt by the working classes of the developed world against a globalization process that is substantially impoverishing them. I can't say I…

> This could have been avoided, but the time to avoid it was perhaps in the early 2000s. there were protests, from Seattle '99 until Genova '01, where many different groups merged into a single protest agaist that kind of globalization. but after 9/11 everything almost vanished in the name of worldwide anti-terrorism.

The terrorists won on 9/11 not because they directly did much damage but because they got America to shoot itself in the foot. This was just one of many things our government's response ruined, unfortunately.

Re: That sinking feeling

#103

Post by EliRivers »

kzrdude wrote: post #57

Just because of a customs border, one doesn't have to have road blocks and controls. Seems to be an assumption, but I don't agree, one can keep an opening border anyway, even if you have customs.

I think that falls foul of WTO rules.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-are-t...

Re: That sinking feeling

#104

Post by jlavine »

Sniperfish wrote: post #30
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

What good is a vote if the choices aren't honestly presented?

What vote in any democracy has not been surrounded by misrepresentations by advocates of different sides? There was no censorship in the Brexit campaign. All sides were free to make their case for months during the campaign. There were plenty of false and misleading claims on both sides, as well as attempted debunking of these claims on the opposing sides. The Brexit debates were far more thorough, fair, and civil than anything you ever see in the US or most other democratic countries. The notion that the electorate shouldn't have been trusted to sort through all of this, and requires a set of true facts cultivated by some elite group, undermines the entire premise of democracy.

Re: That sinking feeling

#105

Post by osullivj »

wilsonnb2 wrote: post #101
adamrezich wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "should" the Brexit referendum get the special privilege of a "do-over?" I have no idea how the law works over there but surely that would set some sort of terrible precedent? I have zero skin in that game but the idea that people can espouse the virtues of democracy one minute only to make endless excuses as to why the result of a wholly democratic vote is wrong, invalid, or otherwise "deserves" a do-over the ne…

Nobody should trust the will of the people. That's why we have representative democracies and not direct democracies. The Brexit referendum shouldn't get a special "do-over". Instead, the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will. I'm sure a majority of the people have many other terrible ideas that they agree with, especially when you only need 51% of those who car…

Yes. A referendum on restoring the death penalty in the UK would likely get a strong yes vote. In that case the people's will would be wrong. The most important feature of democracy is that it gives enables people to remove governments without violence. The ability to choose or influence what govts do is secondary.

Re: That sinking feeling

#106

Post by Cthulhu_ »

consto wrote: post #26

While the article may seem alarmist, considering how little the government has achieved in the 762 days since the referendum, I too have little hope of any meaningful progress being made. We have 240 days left, little idea what the government even wants, and Theresa May is in the headlines for snatching milk from children. Not that the opposition is in much better shape. I do not know what Brexit the UK will get, but…

Well can they pull out? They've invoked article 50, as far as I understood it, they'll be out of the UK one way or another.

And hopefully if they can cancel it and they do, they'll get fucked heavily by the EU as well as punishment for being a dick.

Re: That sinking feeling

#107

Post by BerislavLopac »

bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

THERE WAS NO VOTE.

First, the famous referendum was advisory, and in no way obligated the government to do anything. Technically it was just slightly serious than a public opinion poll.

Second, the question was too unclear, and it was not clear what will happen in the case of a "leave" vote.

Third, the result was too inconclusive -- a 4% difference is too small to base such strong decisions on, especially after such a short campaign with so many irregularities as this one. [0]

And finally, even if the result required the government to act on it, there was no provision that it has to happen so soon. For a serious "brexit" there should be more time to negotiate and reach a solid deal.

[0] http://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pd...

Re: That sinking feeling

#108

Post by osullivj »

kzrdude wrote: post #57

Just because of a customs border, one doesn't have to have road blocks and controls. Seems to be an assumption, but I don't agree, one can keep an opening border anyway, even if you have customs.

Yes. In the event of a hard brexit, the UK could honour it's Good Friday Agreement open border commitment by imposing no road blocks or control on the NI side of the Irish border. What the RoI govt & EU do on their side is up to them.

Re: That sinking feeling

#109

Post by osullivj »

EliRivers wrote: post #103
kzrdude wrote: post #57

Just because of a customs border, one doesn't have to have road blocks and controls. Seems to be an assumption, but I don't agree, one can keep an opening border anyway, even if you have customs.

I think that falls foul of WTO rules. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-are-t...

I guess the UK could have a referendum on leaving the WTO.
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