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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#51

Post by ac29 »

orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

The question to me is, why does this population exist in such great numbers? I understand not having good credit, but having access to a checking account with a debit card doesn't seem like it should be insurmountable.

The last checking account I opened just took $5 to open the account (technically a "membership" fee at a credit union). No any proof of employment, income, ar assets was needed [0], and I left with a debit card that day. Total time involvement was maybe 15 minutes.

[0] I just re-checked and all that is needed is SSN, Government ID, and the initial deposit (as low as $5, can be paid with cash, debit, credit, or check)

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#52

Post by bena »

United857 wrote: post #43

This article burys the lede -- from the last paragraph: Take the overdraft fee, a punishment for desperate or careless customers that netted banks $15 billion in 2016. As many as half of overdraft fees aren’t assessed at an ATM, where customers can see their balance, but at the point of sale—debit card transactions at the counters of shops and restaurants. And the majority of overdraft fees, the Consumer Financial Pr…

Do they still do the thing where they structure debits to maximize penalties?

Say you have $100 in your account and 5 pending transactions: $6, $12, $1, $30, and $95. In that chronological order. The bank clears the $95 first, then the $6 which overdrafts you, then the rest, overdrafting you 3 more times. Whereas if they processed chronologically, you'd only overdraft the $95.

Regardless, the person whose account it is does bear some responsibility for overdrafting, even for lunch.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#53

Post by bena »

amluto wrote: post #33

I think the federal government should start using FDIC as a stick here. It could be fairly straightforward: if you want to be an FDIC member, you must offer basic banking. In particular, you must offer anyone who is legally in the US a free checking account. The terms must be more or less standardized. No arbitration clause, no limit on class-action lawsuits, no check deposit fees, no in-network ATM fees, no under-mi…

Eh. They do offer banking. But banks make their money investing your money.

Also, I think "no overdraft fees" is just as wrong as overly punitive overdraft fees. If there were no overdraft fees, credit cards and small loans just wouldn't be a thing. Just overdraft your account and treat it as an interest free loan.

When you overdraft, you are no longer dealing with your money. You're dealing with someone else's money.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#54

Post by hartator »

adamzochowski wrote: post #36
hartator wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you buy a prepaid debit card at a Walmart? I think it's probably fine to let the business decide whatever means of payment they want to accept.

Compare cash to the walmart card: 1) walmart charges 3% for all purchases outside of walmart 2) walmart charges 1$ for all purchses 3) walmart charges 5$ monthly maintenance fee 4) walmart charges 3$ to 5$ per deposit 5) even to check account status costs 50cents Holding cash has none of these costs. I am not surprised that there is a large contingent of society that doesn't trust cards and banks.

I was talking about prepaid debit cards which are basically gift cards.

You also have proper debit cards without fees and anonymous: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/nerdwallets-best-pre...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#55

Post by NeedMoreTea »

bena wrote: post #45
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should you have to? Once upon a time the customer was always right. A business was supposed to serve the customer's needs and did what was necessary to achieve that. Now the business can insert multiple middlemen with commissions and transaction fees and the damn customers can just fall into line. Sharpish please, and no complaints or we'll close your account. Do we not see a problem travelling down this road? Or…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right Like the bit says, even when the phrase was becoming popularized, people saw the inherent flaw in it. The customer is right, within reason. You are complaining about a cashless business, one that won't accept the minted currency of the nation. Which could be a fair complaint. But if we are to hold to the maxim that the customer is always right, then if I insi…

Like most adages and slogans it's the core idea that matters, not to take it so literally as to ignore fraud or allow payment in string. The idea being the business should try and meet the customer's needs.

Businesses do want to insert middlemen where they can externalise something else. Either to move another cost or process to the customer or to reduce staff. We've seen the near abolition of customer service by adopting customer service departments that move the activity onto dedicated, and lowly paid staff or outsourced entirely.

For most of the fifty years since Visa started businesses have been expected to take credit cards, even though they cost more to process for all that time. In the UK business could not charge extra for taking cards. The second cash costs more it's OK to abandon it and go Visa/MC only?

Yes, it seems they do want to insert middlemen. Visa of course are encouraging this.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#56

Post by ac29 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #32
hartator wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you buy a prepaid debit card at a Walmart? I think it's probably fine to let the business decide whatever means of payment they want to accept.

Why should you have to? Once upon a time the customer was always right. A business was supposed to serve the customer's needs and did what was necessary to achieve that. Now the business can insert multiple middlemen with commissions and transaction fees and the damn customers can just fall into line. Sharpish please, and no complaints or we'll close your account. Do we not see a problem travelling down this road? Or…

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for a business to not want to take cash (employee time in cash handling likely adds at least 5% in payroll overhead, theft can also be an issue in retail at least).

You may want to pay in bitcoin, nickels, or with bushels of corn, but that doesn't mean any of them are practical or desirable for the business owner on the other end.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#57

Post by notduncansmith »

mortenjorck wrote: post #37
orangechairs wrote: post #18

To echo what others have said, cashless systems -- especially in fast food chains -- are a quick way to discriminate against a whole population of the underbanked. I was in Dos Toros (burrito chain mentioned early in the article) about a month ago, and the woman in line ahead of me didn't have a card. She got so embarrassed at the register despite having ample cash to pay for her meal. I paid for her with my card, sh…

What card-only establishments really need is what cash-only bars and diners have had for years: an on-premises method of conversion. It would effectively be a reverse ATM, that you could feed cash and get a prepaid card (minus, of course, an ATM fee). If something like this doesn’t exist, it seems like a good startup opportunity.

Reverse ATM would be a cool startup, especially if you could make online payments or acquire cryptocurrencies in addition to getting prepaid cards.

After a quick search, it looks like someone in Portland tried to do something along these lines: https://www.atmmarketplace.com/news/reverse-atm-caters-to-po...

It doesn’t look like it went anywhere, online info on the company is scant apart from a few press releases.

Basically you’re just talking about offering a physical cash-friendly terminal to the digital economy. Maybe someone should try that angle. Counterfeit and money laundering will be huge issues. It’s hard to anonymously launder money at scale with storebought prepaid cards, because of the humans in the sales loop (which also allow non-money-laundering transactions to happen anonymously). A workable compromise might be to require a SSN/PIN combo at the reverse ATM.

As for counterfeit: sophisticated scanners? I think many banks allow you to deposit cash or checks at their larger, bank-branded ATMs. Perhaps that technology is available. You’ll probably just end up buying “counterfeit insurance” and then try to get whatever tech will drive your premiums down.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#58

Post by dionidium »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #40
dionidium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should you have to? This is going to sound glib, but I assure you that it's offered genuinely: you don't have to do anything.

Until such point as all businesses have achieved cashless and there is no choice in the matter left, for anyone. That's the stated endpoint of this game. Why do you think Visa are offering $10k prizes for businesses that can go fully cashless? It's not for the customers. I would make a point of not supporting such a business but if I'm in a minority and cashless catches on...

It's fashionable to regard de jure and de facto outcomes identically, but I don't find such arguments compelling. It's a distinction that matters.

Further, I'm in the minority on a whole bunch of topics, but that's not evidence that a harm or an injury has taken place.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#59

Post by gruez »

amluto wrote: post #33

I think the federal government should start using FDIC as a stick here. It could be fairly straightforward: if you want to be an FDIC member, you must offer basic banking. In particular, you must offer anyone who is legally in the US a free checking account. The terms must be more or less standardized. No arbitration clause, no limit on class-action lawsuits, no check deposit fees, no in-network ATM fees, no under-mi…

why not get the fed to do it? https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor...

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#60

Post by notduncansmith »

staplers wrote: post #41
mortenjorck wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What card-only establishments really need is what cash-only bars and diners have had for years: an on-premises method of conversion. It would effectively be a reverse ATM, that you could feed cash and get a prepaid card (minus, of course, an ATM fee). If something like this doesn’t exist, it seems like a good startup opportunity.

You mean a gift card?

That would just add an extra step to cash transactions, if you plan on allowing people to buy gift cards with cash. The whole point of the policy from the business’s perspective is to cut costs around handling cash.
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