Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#61

Post by klipt » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #48

rescripting wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're being downvoted; it's not exactly the best time to be an immigrant in America. Maybe if you're not a visible minority and never leave the valley you could stick your thumbs in your ears and just cash the cheques.

Why? I know there's some clamp downs on H1-B but they don't seem huge, and most tech migration is legal.

When Trump's travel ban rolled out and people with green cards were being blocked at the border, I was terrified. Thank goodness the courts struck down that version.

My wife and I aren't from any of the blocked countries, but who knows how the list could have grown at Trump's whim and current "enemy of the week".

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#62

Post by 52-6F-62 » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

ttt111222333 wrote: post #27

neivin wrote: post #24

As a Toronto native, who now lives in Silicon Valley (part of the brain drain from Waterloo), there is a reason why everyone leaves Toronto/Canada - the salaries are simply laughable when compared to the bay area. The only reason you would stay in Toronto for a job in tech is if you wanted to stay close to family, or your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse. Or, you just hate money and being at the center of the tech industr…

There are no big companies in Toronto that have tech jobs. Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Uber, etc. don't have tech jobs in Toronto. Amazon just started adding tech jobs in Toronto in the past maybe year or two and Shopify is the only exception to this rule. If any toronto natives know of some big companies in Toronto with tech jobs please prove me wrong.

Microsoft and HP are in Mississauga, Honeywell and IBM are in Markham. Uber has a small office right in my neighbourhood. Rakuten Kobo is in the neighbourhood as well. Nvidia is downtown, but their office is relatively small.

There are a few. Most large ones are in the suburbs. Downtown has an overwhelming amount of VC-funded ad-tech companies that I wouldn't go near if my living depended on it. (I'd take up something else to cover the bills...)

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#63

Post by atomic77 » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

The only hope the Toronto tech scene has to escape from its mediocrity is, ironically, a renegotiation of Nafta, or a major change in government policy on immigration.

As long as the cost for privileged access to the US market is open season to poach the best and brightest of our labour market, and a local tech scene too addicted what amounts to a subsidy in the form of large immigration numbers that prevent wages here from adjusting upwards to US levels, very little will take root here beyond satellite offices and near-shoring, and the brain drain will continue.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#64

Post by to_bpr » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

I'll put it in a mildly hyperbolic manner, to match the quality of the source this article came from:

Toronto gets the sloppy seconds of America's tech industry; the Canadian tech grads who couldn't move to the US, the Indian tech migrants who couldn't get US visas, the "startups" who couldn't get US VC funding, tech conferences etc. etc.

That some companies are seeking to lower their costs but retain "North American culture" by transferring some functions to Toronto is not an indication of the strength of Toronto, but its weakness. Cheap dollar, far cheaper salaries, cheap(er) office spaces, far cheaper politicians to buy if necessary, etc.

When anyone in the North American tech industry can name 5 bustling Canadian startups from the top of their mind, then maybe we can talk about the Canadian tech industry doing well. Until then, it's about as relevant in tech as Bangalore and jobs there are as relevant as any of those located in other outsourced, cost-reducing "tech centres".

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#65

Post by thescriptkiddie » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

neivin wrote: post #24

As a Toronto native, who now lives in Silicon Valley (part of the brain drain from Waterloo), there is a reason why everyone leaves Toronto/Canada - the salaries are simply laughable when compared to the bay area. The only reason you would stay in Toronto for a job in tech is if you wanted to stay close to family, or your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse. Or, you just hate money and being at the center of the tech industr…

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/data-reveals-american-dream-al...

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#66

Post by robbrit » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

AnthonyWnC wrote: post #38

Also Toronto native; was making just under 100k ~ 3 years ago in SysEng/devops role. Now working in NYC in similar role at ~ 185k (Cdn). Even with CoL (housing) of NYC, my savings is much higher. Personally I much prefer to live in Toronto but the salary is just too low.

Agreed. I moved from Montreal to SF a few years back and although my rent tripled, so did my income. The net result is much more savings than I would have gotten if I had stayed in Canada.

If you're a saver/investor then it makes much more sense to move to the US for a little while, save up a decent sized nest egg, then move back.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#67

Post by dyarosla » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

Element_ wrote: post #42

There are over 350,000 Canadians living and working in Silicon Valley. Canada's total population is only ~35 million. There is good reason for this mass exodus. The rates for tech workers in Toronto are terrible. An enterprising worker can easily triple their income by working for American companies. The fact that this report is sourced from a real estate firm should give you a hint to the rent-seeking nature of the…

Could you link your source for the 350k figure? Thank you!

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#68

Post by Panini_Jones » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

faramarz wrote: post #52

ttt111222333 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no big companies in Toronto that have tech jobs. Google, Facebook, Airbnb, Uber, etc. don't have tech jobs in Toronto. Amazon just started adding tech jobs in Toronto in the past maybe year or two and Shopify is the only exception to this rule. If any toronto natives know of some big companies in Toronto with tech jobs please prove me wrong.

Plenty! Muse, Google, Facebook, Softchoice, IBM, ALL major banks have a tech arm now, like Scotia Banks Digital Factory, CIBC Live Labs ,etc., and other tech companies, Flip, Wave, Freshbooks, Wattpad (raised major vc money), Ritual (raised 75m this year), TribalScale, Worktango, just to name a few.

Facebook doesn't have an engineering office in Toronto.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#69

Post by otoburb » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

neivin wrote: post #41

analyst74 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved from Toronto to SF last year, I think the CoL-adjusted salary is pretty close, or actually better in Toronto. This is comparing good mid-sized company in both cities. One misconception I think, is that many people moved to SV for big-N companies and comparing that with average Toronto salaries.

> I think the CoL-adjusted salary is pretty close, or actually better in Toronto. This is a common misconception, and is promoted by a lot of tech companies in Toronto. It actually frustrates me whenever someone says that the compensation in the bay vs Toronto is the same after adjusting for CoL. It's really not. You will end up with more absolute savings by working in the bay area, than you will in Toronto in a simi…

>>It's really not. You will end up with more absolute savings by working in the bay area, than you will in Toronto in a similar living situation.

Almost every expat Canadian working and saving in the US also has a little voice in the back of their mind reassuring them that even if the absolute number of saved US dollars is the same as saved Canadian dollars, there's a really good chance their US dollars will go further [when|if] they move back home in X years due to the historical exchange rate.

Re: Toronto adds more tech jobs than Silicon Valley in past 5 years

#70

Post by nathan_f77 » Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 5:20 PM UTC

neivin wrote: post #24

As a Toronto native, who now lives in Silicon Valley (part of the brain drain from Waterloo), there is a reason why everyone leaves Toronto/Canada - the salaries are simply laughable when compared to the bay area. The only reason you would stay in Toronto for a job in tech is if you wanted to stay close to family, or your girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse. Or, you just hate money and being at the center of the tech industr…

My wife and I really want to move to Toronto one day. I interviewed at a tech startup and got an offer for ~$60k CAD plus some equity. It was a good amount of equity, and they were pretty small. Their product and mission was really awesome, and I think I would have had a good time working there. But I wasn't going to move for that kind of money. That's 2.5 times less than an "entry-level" tech salary in SF ($120k USD.)