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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#121

Post by drivingmenuts »

mnm1 wrote: post #99
api wrote: post #15

I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." The Trump and Brexit elections were for some people a kind of Luddite revolt -- not against technology per se but against globalization. This was a revolt by the working classes of the developed world against a globalization process that is substantially impoverishing them. I can't say I…

If America was great before 1973, it certainly was only great for white men. Ask a black person just how great America was before 1973. Or a woman. Mexicans. Chinese. Native Americans. MAGA is a racist slogan that only appeals to racist whites and idiots who don't know American history.

> If America was great before 1973, it certainly was only great for white men. Ask a black person just how great America was before 1973. Or a woman. Mexicans. Chinese. Native Americans. MAGA is a racist slogan that only appeals to racist whites and idiots who don't know American history.

And white men are the ones who vote. While there has been an increase in participation among all other demographics, educated white males are still the ones who drive US politics.

Percentage and numeric participation would have to increase from all other demographics to overturn that.

Re: That sinking feeling

#122

Post by mcphage »

nopriorarrests wrote: post #117
wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

Before diving into into policy details, you need to consider the bigger picture. Hillary was promising, generally speaking, third term of Obama. He actually endorsed her, and there was little disagreement between the two. If people were unhappy about two Obama terms (and it seems they were, in large enough numbers), it was a losing proposition from the start, and details about prescription drugs and tax cuts for smal…

> it seems they were, in large enough numbers

He got elected & re-elected by more votes than any other president in history; his popularity at the end of his tenure was very high. Hillary was unpopular, but not because of her similarity to Obama.

Re: That sinking feeling

#123

Post by adamrezich »

wilsonnb2 wrote: post #101
adamrezich wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "should" the Brexit referendum get the special privilege of a "do-over?" I have no idea how the law works over there but surely that would set some sort of terrible precedent? I have zero skin in that game but the idea that people can espouse the virtues of democracy one minute only to make endless excuses as to why the result of a wholly democratic vote is wrong, invalid, or otherwise "deserves" a do-over the ne…

Nobody should trust the will of the people. That's why we have representative democracies and not direct democracies. The Brexit referendum shouldn't get a special "do-over". Instead, the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will. I'm sure a majority of the people have many other terrible ideas that they agree with, especially when you only need 51% of those who car…

I agree completely w.r.t. representative democracy vs. mob rule... yet, "the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will" makes zero sense to me. I have seen arguments for and against Brexit, so where does this authoritative "Brexit would definitely be bad and any result other than Remain should be ignored" come from?

Re: That sinking feeling

#124

Post by wilsonnb2 »

api wrote: post #115
wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. At this point the issue has been ignored for so long that people have lost all trust in the current establishment. They assume any promises from the current establishment are BS to get them to vote and will be forgotten right after the election. If your house has been on fire forever and is burned down to…

> An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s.

You do say that this. But, you also say that liberals "need to start actually giving a damn" about the poor and working class. I am refuting that point by showing that the liberal agenda is actually aimed at helping the middle class and the poor.

> What are the victims of these policies going to do? Nobody listens to them. Nobody cares. So in the end all they're left with is political revolts that most of them from what I've read understand are likely impotent, but at least somebody is discussing it. I'm a coastal "tech elite" and I'm writing this post and I wouldn't be if Hillary had won and Brexit hadn't passed. That's democracy I guess.

The problem with your assessment is not that the Trump situation could have been avoided by changing policy between the early 2000's and the 2016 election. I agree with that.

You assert that nobody is listening to or caring about these people, though, which is what I am refuting. The Democratic party is in favor of helping the poor and the middle class, and it has been for a long time.

> Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher.

Obama could have (and would have) done a lot more than "pee" on the flames, as you put it, had he not had to contend with an obstructionist Congress. There is only so much blame you can put on any President due to the limitations on their powers, and very little blame that can be put on Obama in my opinion.

Re: That sinking feeling

#125

Post by alexgmcm »

pjc50 wrote: post #83
api wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

I've started describing Brexit as "anti-globalisation riots for the over-50s". Instead of throwing a park bench through the window of a Starbucks they're going for something much more disruptive.

Can we use their triple-locked pensions to pay for it then?

Re: That sinking feeling

#126

Post by pjc50 »

lmm wrote: post #97
pjc50 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think for a lot of participants there does have to be a "loser" - it's been turned into a "culture war". That's where things like refusing to accept ECJ jurisdiction seem to be coming from. That's why there's such a nasty edge to the whole thing, and such a refusal to engage in compromises that might move the thing forwards.

I don't think it's a case of "having to be a loser". Rather the nasty edge is coming from a loss of confidence that the (upper-middle-class, college-educated) political class will represent the people - and not without reason, given how our political and social elites (still!) dismiss any concern about immigration as nothing but stupid racists, as seen in this very article.

So what are the non-racist fact-based concerns about EU freedom of movement migration? Why is leave voting highly correlated with not actually having high levels of EU migrants in the area?

To forestall the public services argument, to a large extent the public services are made out of immigrants, especially in health and social care.

Re: That sinking feeling

#127

Post by adamrezich »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #107
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

THERE WAS NO VOTE. First, the famous referendum was advisory, and in no way obligated the government to do anything. Technically it was just slightly serious than a public opinion poll. Second, the question was too unclear, and it was not clear what will happen in the case of a "leave" vote. Third, the result was too inconclusive -- a 4% difference is too small to base such strong decisions on, especially after such…

Out of curiosity, can you envision saying the result was too close to call, the campaign was too short, the public was too uninformed, etc., if the result of the referendum was "Remain?"

Re: That sinking feeling

#128

Post by wilsonnb2 »

adamrezich wrote: post #123
wilsonnb2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody should trust the will of the people. That's why we have representative democracies and not direct democracies. The Brexit referendum shouldn't get a special "do-over". Instead, the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will. I'm sure a majority of the people have many other terrible ideas that they agree with, especially when you only need 51% of those who car…

I agree completely w.r.t. representative democracy vs. mob rule... yet, "the result should be ignored because leaving the EU is a bad idea regardless of the people's will" makes zero sense to me. I have seen arguments for and against Brexit, so where does this authoritative "Brexit would definitely be bad and any result other than Remain should be ignored" come from?

The authoritative view that Brexit is a bad idea comes from the fact that is was sold almost entirely with lies and xenophobia, and even then barely got a majority.

I would not consider Brexit an authoritatively bad idea if the leave campaign had been more scrupulous and the vote had a larger margin of victory.

"We pay £350 million per week to the EU"

"We will be able to stay in the single market"

"Migrants are overrunning the country"

"We are not a sovereign state as long as we are a member of the EU".

Re: That sinking feeling

#129

Post by maxerickson »

lmm wrote: post #100
ardillaroja wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? At the end of the day I don't think the public were qualified to answer the question as it was posed. There…

> But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? You can't keep asking the people until they give the answer you want and then seize on that. Holding anoth…

Is that a legal argument or are you saying that repeated votes would be ugly politics?

Re: That sinking feeling

#130

Post by jlavine »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #107
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

THERE WAS NO VOTE. First, the famous referendum was advisory, and in no way obligated the government to do anything. Technically it was just slightly serious than a public opinion poll. Second, the question was too unclear, and it was not clear what will happen in the case of a "leave" vote. Third, the result was too inconclusive -- a 4% difference is too small to base such strong decisions on, especially after such…

But Parliament did vote to pursue Brexit and trigger Article 50 following the referendum.

You're right that the referendum did not legally compel Parliament to this vote, but many MPs thought that it ethically compelled them to it, and for good reason: The entire premise of the referendum was that Parliament would act on the results. The referendum didn't just pop up like a random opinion poll; it was years in the making, came about as a result of political negotiations, and followed a high-profile months-long campaign.

Elections were just held following the Article 50 vote precisely to give voters a second chance to express their view on Brexit, and this resulted in maintenance of a pro-Brexit Tory government.

By "irregularities", you seem to imply corruption in the conduct of the referendum. Which exactly are you referring to? Your link provides no guidance.

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