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Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

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Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#231

Post by jccalhoun »

raziel2701 wrote: post #60
chrisseaton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not this anti-PhD negative nonsense again! It doesn't ring true to me at all. > You live off a meager stipend for about a decade I paid a mortgage, supported a family, and built savings while doing my PhD with no issue. > and then, in your mid-30s, you go on the job market for the first time. You don't appear on the job market like a newbie. By the time you graduate you should already be well-known enough in your fie…

Where did you go to school that you were able to pay a mortgage and have a family while doing your phd? I'm paying a wee bit more than half my monthly salary on rent alone. Am in Bay Area though.

I did my phd in Indiana and had $90k in student loans by the time I was finished (of course that includes my undergrad and masters degree). I was in the humanities though.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#232

Post by jccalhoun »

asafira wrote: post #221
binbag wrote: post #38

This sounds very obvious, but everyone I know who dropped out of their PhD wasn't cut out for doing one. If you are feeling guilty about reading more papers, you shouldn't be doing a doctoral degree. On the other hand, when you're a post-doc I totally agree that there is more to life than the 'big fish in a small pond' world of academia. There is something particularly annoying about the academic environment - some c…

Why did people feel guilty to read papers? Seems like a strange reason to drop out. I know many more people who dropped out because of poor management than those that didn't seem to be good at it.

Agreed. I don't think anyone ever drops out because they feel guilty for reading too much.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#233

Post by joncrane »

awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

I remember in undergrad I took a class and the topic of the day was the concept of an inflection point. The way the professor demonstrated it was like this:

Based on time spent and potential earnings forgone, a Bachelor's degree is a good investment. A Master's is a good investment. The inflection point happens, and a Phd is not as good of an investment.

That's all the information I needed to decide to stop after a Master's. Have only regretted it once, when I worked at a company that was owned by someone with a Phd in Economics and with many Phd Economists working there. I felt like a second class citizen and in a moment of irrationality, when the entire employment universe seemed to consist of only this company and ones like it, I thought about going and getting a Phd in my late 30s.

Thank God I didn't. Making about 2.5x as much as I was making then, two jobs later, no further education needed (other than Cloud Guru courses).

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#234

Post by jimhefferon »

gowld wrote: post #105
chriskanan wrote: post #74

A PhD is a degree in conducting research. Get one if you want a career in research. If you don't like research, don't do a PhD. Any decent program pays students about a $1.5-3K monthly stipend. Don't have being a professor as the only acceptable end-goal. There are lots of careers that benefit from or require a PhD besides being a professor. People with STEM PhDs are found in great concentration in R&D settings. For…

I thought the entire appeal of a "liberal arts" college was that the college focuses on quality teaching instead of research. Why on earth would they demand their profressors have PhDs?

I'm at a SLAC. Here are a couple of reasons that the institutions want this.

1) Teachers should know more than the students. The degree quantifies that.

2) The highest-rated SLAC's have PhD faculty, and so the next-highest aspire to that.

One way this is concrete is that the accrediting agencies put as a point they look for that all faculty have a terminal degree. And people looking at colleges want to go to the highest-rated places (subject to monetary considerations), so it is a major factor in enrollment.

3) It helps keep you alive, and your teaching reflects that.

This third one can sound a little BS but in my experience having a professional activity as a creative output definitely helps keep people from becoming toasted.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#235

Post by irremediable »

anonytrary wrote: post #218
barry-cotter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Cambridge disagrees with you. You arrive with a Bachelor’s or a Master’s, start immediately on research and should be done in three or four years. https://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/degreesoffered...

A single cherry-picked university in the UK may disagree, but what I said is generally true for American universities. When I was a grad student in physics, everyone pretty much took 5-6 years at minimum; this was true for every single grad school I got in to. I've heard that universities across the pond have different tracks for grad students, so that might be responsible for the discrepancy.

It's not cherry-picked, actually; the historical standard in the UK is three years. However, it's not common to do any qualifying exams or courses in a three year program. There's a new trend of so-called "Centres for Doctoral Training" where students take four years, and get a year or courses and qualifying exams at the start.

Consequently, UK PhDs are often quite a bit more junior than US PhDs -- although it works brilliantly if you're an academic high-flier, as you show up and start doing research on day one, leaving with a doctorate three years later.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#236

Post by vowelless »

ronald_raygun wrote: post #214

There is a joke I like that goes A professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home leaked. He called a plumber. The plumber came the next day and sealed a few screws, and everything was working as before. The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked. "This is one-third of my monthly salary!" he yelled. Well, all the same he paid it and then…

Two mathematicians are in a bar. The first one says to the second that the average person knows very little about basic mathematics. The second one disagrees, and claims that most people can cope with a reasonable amount of mathematics.

The first mathematician goes off to the washroom, and in his absence the second calls over the waitress. He tells her that in a few minutes, after his friend has returned, he will call her over and ask her a question. All she has to do is answer “one third x cubed.”

She repeats “one thir — dex cue”?

He repeats, “one third x cubed”.

She asks, “one thir dex cubed?”

“Yes, that’s right,” he says.

So she agrees, and goes off mumbling to herself, “one thir dex cubed…”.

The first guy returns and the second proposes a bet to prove his point, that most people do know something about basic mathematics. He says he will ask the blonde waitress an integral, and the first laughingly agrees. The second man calls over the waitress and asks “what is the integral of x squared?”.

The waitress says “one third x cubed” and whilst walking away, turns back and says over her shoulder “plus a constant!”

https://simonsingh.net/books/fermats-last-theorem/mathematic...

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#237

Post by barry-cotter »

anonytrary wrote: post #218
barry-cotter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Cambridge disagrees with you. You arrive with a Bachelor’s or a Master’s, start immediately on research and should be done in three or four years. https://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/degreesoffered...

A single cherry-picked university in the UK may disagree, but what I said is generally true for American universities. When I was a grad student in physics, everyone pretty much took 5-6 years at minimum; this was true for every single grad school I got in to. I've heard that universities across the pond have different tracks for grad students, so that might be responsible for the discrepancy.

That university is ranked as 21st in the world on the ranking least favourable to it and in the top ten globally on all others. Its system of graduate education is comparable to other U.K. universities, like Manchester, Imperial, Edinburgh or Durham. You are expected to get a doctorate in three or four years, you generally start research immediately but there are exceptions that will have taught courses and you need a great Bachelor’s or a good Master’s to be admitted.

The only real difference between the British system and that in mainland Europe is that you will find it difficult to impossible to get onto a doctoral programme without a Master’s. You’ll still be expected to finish within at absolute most four years and to start researching from the word go.

As far as different tracks for graduate students go, same as in the US. North Florida State and Harvard both award doctorates, ditto for Anglia Ruskin and Cambridge.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#238

Post by fybe »

privacypoller wrote: post #117
chriskanan wrote: post #74

A PhD is a degree in conducting research. Get one if you want a career in research. If you don't like research, don't do a PhD. Any decent program pays students about a $1.5-3K monthly stipend. Don't have being a professor as the only acceptable end-goal. There are lots of careers that benefit from or require a PhD besides being a professor. People with STEM PhDs are found in great concentration in R&D settings. For…

>> 2) High levels of impostor syndrome. I felt this, but was surprised that while there were a few genuine genius-level people in my program, the vast majority spent most of the effort trying to look like a genius but were far from it. One of the things I tell people when they ask me about grad school is, "I thought everybody would be smarter".

>"I thought everybody would be smarter"

I don't remember where I heard it but I think has some truth to it. A bachelor believes he's the smartest A master thinks he's not smart at all A Phd understands no one is smart

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#239

Post by dempseye »

anonytrary wrote: post #218
barry-cotter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The University of Cambridge disagrees with you. You arrive with a Bachelor’s or a Master’s, start immediately on research and should be done in three or four years. https://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/degreesoffered...

A single cherry-picked university in the UK may disagree, but what I said is generally true for American universities. When I was a grad student in physics, everyone pretty much took 5-6 years at minimum; this was true for every single grad school I got in to. I've heard that universities across the pond have different tracks for grad students, so that might be responsible for the discrepancy.

It's not a single cherry-picked university. Three or four years is standard in the British Isles.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#240

Post by udp »

chrisseaton wrote: post #125
awelkie wrote: post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

What you're describing as what you didn't expect is how PhDs were done traditionally. It's the more recent US model to have classes and exams. I posed a question to my advisor in order to get onto the PhD, started researching immediately, and my 'general exam' half-way through was a presentation and viva. Obviously the question changed totally by the time I finished, but that's the nature of research and where it tak…

> What you're describing as what you didn't expect is how PhDs were done traditionally. It's the more recent US model to have classes and exams.

Classes and exams in a PhD programme? I've never heard of this anywhere - I had no idea that was a thing in the US.

There is an ugly trend in the UK to having "credits" for attending workshops as part of your "personal development". You basically have to go and sit in a workshop pretending to listen to someone talking about academic writing so that some admin can tick a box. Considering even postdocs and RAs have to write reports on how their "personal development" is progressing I don't think the powers that be will be happy until everyone can be placed into a spreadsheet.

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