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Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

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Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#211
post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

My experience does not agree with what you wrote in your last paragraph. Writing code as a computer scientist is equivalent to doing lab work as a biologist or to building instruments as an experimental physicist. You can't do research in CS if you don't get your hands dirty, unless your research in theoretical computer science. In exchange for this, many doors open to you after you finish your PhD that would otherwise be closed (unless you did your research in theoretical computer science). And among the best and the brightest that I met in industry, many are in fact PhDs.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#212
post #4

I have a master's degree and I learned early that getting a PhD was not for me. The way things worked at the university made me not stand to be in that environment anymore. This thing that is ridiculous in my opinion is that the advisor would say: "there is this conference coming and we will send a manuscript. We can try this and that to see if it is publishable.". Why the hell should I research for publishing? One s…

It's pretty standard in industry to get a deadline by which you need to finish your project when you start working on it.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#213
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regard to your first paragraph, I don't think there are any American universities that admit students by advisor. As far as I'm aware, your admission is a decision made solely by the graduate admissions committee. Even if you have an advisor ready to take you on the most they can do is recommend you to the committee, not supplant it. When you're admitted there are still criteria aside from research to work on. I…

I've been on the PhD admissions committee for the Berkeley CS PhD program. Students in many areas are, for all practical purposes, admitted by an advisor. It's not a formal arrangement in the same sense as European programs, but no one gets admitted unless at least one professor will commit to being willing to advise and fund you. For superstar students this is rarely an issue and you have your pick of advisors, but…

Thank you for the insight. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on finding a good match for advisor, and perhaps any thoughts on approaching someone about exploring an advisorship?

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#214
There is a joke I like that goes

A professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home leaked. He called a plumber. The plumber came the next day and sealed a few screws, and everything was working as before.

The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked.

"This is one-third of my monthly salary!" he yelled.

Well, all the same he paid it and then the plumber said to him, "I understand your position as a professor. Why don't you come to our company and apply for a plumber position? You will earn three times as much as a professor. But remember, when you apply, tell them that you completed only seven elementary classes. They don't like educated people."

So it happened. The professor got a job as a plumber and his life significantly improved. He just had to seal a screw or two occasionally, and his salary went up significantly.

One day, the board of the plumbing company decided that every plumber had to go to evening classes to complete the eighth grade. So, our professor had to go there too. It just happened that the first class was math. The evening teacher, to check students' knowledge, asked for a formula for the area of a circle. The person asked was the professor. He jumped to the board, and then he realized that he had forgotten the formula. He started to reason it, and he filled the white board with integrals, differentials, and other advanced formulas to conclude the result he forgot. As a result, he got "minus pi times r square."

He didn't like the minus, so he started all over again. He got the minus again. No matter how many times he tried, he always got a minus. He was frustrated. He gave the class a frightened look and saw all the plumbers whisper: "Switch the limits of the integral!!"

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#215
post #213
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on the PhD admissions committee for the Berkeley CS PhD program. Students in many areas are, for all practical purposes, admitted by an advisor. It's not a formal arrangement in the same sense as European programs, but no one gets admitted unless at least one professor will commit to being willing to advise and fund you. For superstar students this is rarely an issue and you have your pick of advisors, but…

Thank you for the insight. Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on finding a good match for advisor, and perhaps any thoughts on approaching someone about exploring an advisorship?

First step is to be acquainted with their previous research. Understand the direction they are taking and what their interests are. Find advisors whose work you think you can build on through your PhD. Write down what you are interested in working on and how it relates/expands/builds on your potential advisor's. Then contact them sharing just that and start having a conversation - they will surely have feedback and ideas for directions that your research could take.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#216

There is a joke I like that goes A professor of mathematics noticed that his kitchen sink at his home leaked. He called a plumber. The plumber came the next day and sealed a few screws, and everything was working as before. The professor was delighted. However, when the plumber gave him the bill a minute later, he was shocked. "This is one-third of my monthly salary!" he yelled. Well, all the same he paid it and then…

A subtle and strong twist ending!

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#217
post #97

I think CS PhD programs in particular can be a little strange. I decided to go back to school to pursue a CS PhD after chatting with a retired mathematician about his PhD. He was talking about how he took classes for two years to explore different areas of mathematics and to pass the general exams, then he decided on a branch of mathematics (topology) and approached a professor in that area to be his advisor. After w…

As someone who's also pursuing a PhD in CS, I feel your comment doesn't reflect my situation, or my colleagues'. It's true that I started working on one of my advisor's projects, but the difference between the industry and academia is that I can discuss whatever I want about the project with him, and he will care about it. I am in lead of the project and my advisor acts as an advisor, not a boss.

Of course it all depends on many factors, just my personal experience here.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three years is not nearly enough time to finish PhD thesis work as an experimental physicist. Even if the goalpost was lowered for a PhD, a three year PhD program in physics would just be a glorified masters degree. Plus, if it's even easier to get PhDs, we'll just end up with even more people having PhDs and the status associated with the PhD will be even lower. PhDs are becoming relatively commonplace, and the vast…

The University of Cambridge disagrees with you. You arrive with a Bachelor’s or a Master’s, start immediately on research and should be done in three or four years. https://www.phy.cam.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/degreesoffered...

A single cherry-picked university in the UK may disagree, but what I said is generally true for American universities. When I was a grad student in physics, everyone pretty much took 5-6 years at minimum; this was true for every single grad school I got in to.

I've heard that universities across the pond have different tracks for grad students, so that might be responsible for the discrepancy.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#219
post #62

In England, particularly the south-east, the gulf between a post-doc salary and starting a City/Wall Street job can easily be a factor of 3 or 4.

Also the cost of living makes being a PhD student in London almost untenable - I started in Edinburgh before mastering out and at least there one could live pretty well on the stipend.

Re: Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs

#220
I am a little late to reply, but I wanted to anyway from my experience as a Harvard physics PhD that is choosing to leave academia:

Many PhD programs are their own bubble, and many students don't seriously consider outside opportunities because of it. I honestly do not believe many of the students would be there if they had more exposure to basically anything outside of research, and more students would also consider other opportunities earlier if there was more exposure or a better connection. I really wish internships were better embraced by physics PhD's, but the current competitive culture combined with disagreeable professors makes it not encouraged. (Not to mention the fact that a 3 month internship is a drop in a bucket for a 6+ year PhD)

Otherwise, it is great to hear this person decided to leave their PhD program and found happiness (regardless of what she is doing). One thing I tell people who aren't sure about what they want to do post-graduation (e.g. most physics PhD's), or even if they aren't a good fit for the group they are in: if you took an entire month off from your PhD to make that decision would you regret it? I personally believe in almost all cases you wouldn't.

Strangely, many students seem to either default to a postdoc or put a half-assed effort towards finding an industry job.

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