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I’m leaving China

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Re: I’m leaving China

#131

Post by jbhatab »

1. I wonder how much the longstanding Cultural Revolution has had an impact on their culture, it wasn't that long ago. While they were breaking down as a country, USA was united and placed on top from WW2.

2. Is there an "it's working" view of the government because they're experiencing explosive economic growth. There may be some resentment towards American corporations eating up the world and our government's active involvement in every country's affairs. I could see how the Chinese government pushing back against America enabling the rise of Alibaba, Didi, Baidu, etc making up for some undesirable policies.

3. I want to hear more perspective from the youth in the cities in China.

4. I thought this part was odd:

"The tragedy of modern American foreign policy is the history of active ignorance and refusal to actively confront the Chinese norm or legal violations. The Trump administration is utterly incapable of defending the values and assembling the coalition that would respond to American leadership as they face even greater threats from China."

Trump literally just started a trade war with China. Right or wrong, he is blatantly pushing back towards China economically because of their unfair practices. It might completely backfire and might not be praiseworthy 'values', but you can't say he's not actively confronting China.

Re: I’m leaving China

#132

Post by lgvln »

GuiA wrote: post #82
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment with an enabling government.

> at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. Do you have any further reading on this? It doesn't strike me as too crazy of a statement - but I'd be very interested in seeing how one would go about actually quantifying it.

I recommend Why the West Rules by Ian Morris. He has various comparison of “The West” vs China from the dawn of civilisation.

Re: I’m leaving China

#133

Post by dluan »

lewis500 wrote: post #65
linkmotif wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The difference is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed." (This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the cultures are similar, Wouldn’t you characterize that as a significant cultural difference. Accepting corruption can be viewed as cultural. I would view it this way.

You can define culture many ways obviously, but my point is that you can distinguish behaviors that move with the individual to other places and those that are part of stable equilibria, where one's choice only makes sense in light of others' choices. The latter are like n-player "Stag Hunt" games. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt As an example, Singapore accepts a lot of Malays and Chinese every year (and mos…

The n-person subgame Nash equilibria come from simple environmental constraints - the sheer number of people in India or China and the number of available seats in your commuter subway. The cost of not cutting the line is proportional to the number of participants. I'd argue it's a very different experience in say, Newcastle, UK where trains are historically on time, predictable, not as crowded, as opposed to trains in China being unpredictable, late, etc.

And, re: culture, well game theory tells us that free-riding is a learned outcome of repeated games. Singapore gets its past learning from a hundred years of British colonialism.

Re: I’m leaving China

#134

Post by lgvln »

Wow. I do feel regrettable for what he and his family had to go through, to be uprooted like that after staying there for nine years. I hope he has had supportive friends while in the country.

What’s admirable is how he reacted to the whole situation. He doesn’t seem bitter or prejudiced in that article.

I think he touches on the many aspects of China that are not readily apparent to people who have not lived there. Most English people tend to view China through the lens of the typical English mainstream media perspective while also lacking in knowledge of their cultural and historical background.

Re: I’m leaving China

#135

Post by lgvln »

hangonhn wrote: post #97
lainga wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, his blog was never exactly positive on China, and (as he states in the article) he was very wary of crossing the fine line between moderate criticism and falling afoul of the CCP. Between the fact that he was forced out of his position, and that he says he's "grateful" not to have been detained, I imagine he feels safe enough to get a shot off as he leaves. I don't think the government would get rid of hi…

I give him credit for even trying China. China is the opposite of libertarianism both culturally and politically. Even without the party, personal liberty and worth doesn't factor in much in China or anywhere where Confucianism took root. It's always in relations to others that you derive your worth. That aspect of my heritage has always sit poorly with me (then again I was raised in the US). I'm not saying one way i…

I would agree that China is probably the opposite of libertarian politically. Culturally, I would find it hard to agree. Most people don’t give a crap about others (in a liberating and selfish manner) unless it concerns them directly.

Re: I’m leaving China

#136

Post by lgvln »

ajross wrote: post #116
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment with an enabling government.

That's true, but not in the 20th century. For lots of reasons, China broadly missed the industrial revolution. By the time of the communist revolution, they had... basically nothing indigenous. There was no export industry, most people were at a subsistence level, and essentially the entirety of the social elite were foreign-educated aristocracy simply living off of assets worked by a staggeringly large underclass. I…

In case anyone is curious, the “various reasons” are the Opium Wars, collapse of the Qing dynasty/monarchy, World War 2, the subsequent civil war and the Great Leap Forward. I probably wouldn’t use “a mess” to describe all those events though.

I guess what the previous OP meant by “potential of its people” is their historical culture, akin to why the Jews are generally quite successful on the whole (attributed to their culture).

Re: I’m leaving China

#137

Post by lgvln »

ilamont wrote: post #121

Even so [the western missionary] was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held the belief that making money was the entire meaning of life. There was no value system. Consider also how the national psyche and personal outlooks on the world have been impacted by a lifetime of propaganda celebrating Han-centric nationalism, expansionist foreign policy, and a self-appointed party leadership whose control and policies can n…

I can definitely see how a century of wars and conflicts can erode a society’s moral values.

Expansionist foreign policy? How so? Perhaps the South China Sea?

Re: I’m leaving China

#138

Post by lgvln »

strayamaaate wrote: post #96

Since the line-cutting topic seems to be of interest, I thought I’d share some first hand experience. Having succumbed to the need for a Big Mac a handful of times during a decade long stint in China, I became accustomed to the devolution of queuing when it was peak time. I quickly found myself pushing in and cutting others off, to make sure my order was taken. This made me reflect on how quickly I adapted to the sit…

Well said. I think this describes the phenomenon perfectly. It’s not complete anarchy, everything goes sort of situation. There is a set of hidden rules that most people abide by.

A contrast with a typical Western setting is it doesn’t tend to gravitate towards violence (in my experience). Whereas, a confrontation could easily lead to a violent situation in most Western countries.

Re: I’m leaving China

#139

Post by ttflee »

lewis500 wrote: post #49

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relations…

Remembering my experience in Singapore years ago. I usually went across roads at pedestrian crossing with a few exceptions at Little India, where I followed the crowds and went straight across the roads. People do follow the crowds around.

Re: I’m leaving China

#140

Post by ttflee »

kenjackson wrote: post #33

I never thought quite as broadly as the author, but what he says is consistent with one thing I observed -- driving and pedestrian behavior. In China drivers and pedestrians are both better and worse than those in the US. I found drivers and pedestrians both to be much more aware and had more agency about what they needed to to be safe. Whereas in the US we assume a lot more that the rules of the road are going to be…

In Hangzhou, China, you would find the drivers to behave much nicer to pedestrians. The local police would fine the drivers otherwise.
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