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I’m leaving China

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Re: I’m leaving China

#101

Post by bsder »

pascalxus wrote: post #71

Being in other countries like China and France really makes me appreciate how world class the customer service is in America. Here in the US, you can tell a waiter that your not happy with a dish and they'll immediately replace it with whatever you want. You can make substitutions, you can alter the way it's cooked (within reason), etc, and they still greet you with a smile and deliver excellent service. There are ma…

> Being in other countries like China and France really makes me appreciate how world class the customer service is in America.

I can't speak about China, but I'm going to call you out on France as a counterexample.

I have had very good service every time I have been to France.

I speak a very little French, and executed most things in English and people were as friendly and helpful as they were anywhere in the US.

I suspect that a lot of Americans get in trouble because they don't really internalize the fact that "Hey, I'm in a different place and the norms are different. Pay attention--you might have to adjust."

Wanna see rude? Try being an indecisive Californian in the front of a line in a New York City sandwich shop at lunch rush and watch what happens.

Re: I’m leaving China

#102

Post by abhgh »

dhruvrrp wrote: post #46

The issues the author has about line cutting and openly gawking seemed kinda interesting. In my view line cutting happens because people have this view that their time is more valuable than anyone else's, and so they don't see it as breaking any 'rules' as such. And this isn't unique to China, you can see this in a lot of poorer south/south-east Asian countries. Kinda why driving is also a nightmare in these countrie…

Ha, that reminds me. I have a thing for trying out good cafes, and on my way to Berkeley, I decided to stop at one in Oakland. Till that point my ambit had been more or less limited to areas where s/w companies are + touristy spots. So, I never was the only Indian around. But here I was - and I got a lot of stares during my walk from a BART station to the cafe. Which was amusing and mildly uncomfortable.

Re: I’m leaving China

#103

Post by jessewmc »

In my mind occam's razor applies to the 'culture' of money over everything in China, if there is such a thing. I think theres a pretty simple explanation:

Most Chinese people have parents or grandparents who remember Mao and the great famines, or worked on or still work on rice farms in the sort of abject poverty no westerner--even a homeless one--can understand.

It's difficult to be exposed to this unless you live there for a while, preferably somewhere other than Beijing or Shanghai, and work with and interact with locals regularly.

The reality and nearness of the abject poverty of hundreds of millions of your countrymen is a fear that is utterly foreign in the so-called western world, but is very real in China. It is what everyone works to escape, and then works to prevent for their descendants.

I don't think TFA was particularly accusatory, but there was an undercurrent of judgement there that I think is unfair. If western culture was subject to that environment with such a large population I think we'd see very similar behaviour, understandably.

I also think this partly explains the tolerance to the current communist party--they have made real strides in lifting the living standards of hundreds of millions of people, and compared to still-too-near family memories of what China has been through, a little authoritarianism is a small price to pay for that.

I think China will need a long track record of prosperity before any real social or political change will happen.

Re: I’m leaving China

#104

Post by sumedh »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #80
adventured wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's certainly the case, China is a country of vast differences between people. To the extent China has seen arguably the fastest dash of economic development in history, imagine what the corresponding, linked cultural & educational development has looked like. In the span of several decades, half a billion people shifted from an almost zero traditional education environment in rural, very poor third-world…

This isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment with an enabling government.

> China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world.

I keep hearing the same line about India as well but that does not mean that the common people were rich and educated just the upper class. So were the common people in China rich and educated in the time period which you are talking about?

Re: I’m leaving China

#105

Post by guscost »

rconti wrote: post #88
guscost wrote: post #56

> Almost like the wealthy who need therapy despite living materially comfortable lives, Americans are fighting with vitriolic rhetoric in seemingly unnecessary ways. The most accurate idea I’ve seen in years.

It strikes me as the opposite of a good idea, unless he's using it to justify why the rhetoric, while "seemingly unnecessary" is actually, in fact, necessary. I really see no reason to believe the materially comfortable would suffer from mental issues at a lower rate than those who are not materially comfortable. And, if anything, they have the resources to afford it and the luxury of time to take advantage of it.

I get your point, but you have to acknowledge that there is a gap between "suffering from mental issues" and "treatment is necessary" even in wealthy societies like America and free-healthcare societies like Britain. The best emergency room in the world has a "triage officer" whose job is to determine who needs treatment, and who is merely suffering, at any given time.

People with easy access to mental health care often think that they need treatment for whatever ails them. Similarly, people with the opportunity to worry about Big Problems and argue for whatever they believe (without consequence) often think that they need to have nasty, dehumanizing duels over temporary political phenomena that will be forgotten in a few years.

Nobody should be discouraged from finding help for their mental issues (or standing up for their beliefs), but at the same time they should understand that it may be a luxury and not a necessity.

Re: I’m leaving China

#106

Post by ljw1001 »

pascalxus wrote: post #86
peterwwillis wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American wait staff have to rely on tips rather than a living wage, which forces them to take unending amounts of crap, or else they can't pay the rent. American consumers can and do verbally (and sometimes physically) abuse wait staff, and if the staff don't sit there and take it with a smile, they get fired. I don't find this an endearing trait.

Go to france and try going to a restaurant. You'll see what i mean, right away. It's a world of a difference.

Yup. No horror quite so horrid as dining in French restaurants.

Re: I’m leaving China

#107

Post by robotkdick »

The experiences the OP has had are priceless, and read something like a novel if someone like John Kennedy Toole had he written about living in China (comic in some respects, but also surreal). The Snow White episode in the elevator is delightful: the father having to explain to his daughter that being associated with Snow White is a good thing, and she being upset at being labeled.

The world is shrinking and being stretched at the same time.

Re: I’m leaving China

#108

Post by princetontiger »

lewis500 wrote: post #49

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relations…

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Re: I’m leaving China

#109

Post by princetontiger »

99_00 wrote: post #83
lewis500 wrote: post #49

Regarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relations…

You should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion, money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is a sale at the Coach outlet store.

Very true. China is a pestilence.

Re: I’m leaving China

#110

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sumedh wrote: post #104
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment with an enabling government.

> China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. I keep hearing the same line about India as well but that does not mean that the common people were rich and educated just the upper class. So were the common people in China rich and educated in the time period which you are talking about?

If you want to go there, the same was true in the rest of the world as well, including Western Europe if we are comparing European and Chinese peasants. And yes, India has similar potential to China.
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