Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich • Hacker News Board

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#241

Post by mnm1 » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:08 PM UTC

Latty wrote: post #26

franciscop wrote: post #15

As a Spaniard who has discussed this in lenght with many other Europeans[1], it really seems like the US is the main country with the University debt issue. I also really believe that "score inflation" is a big issue mainly in the US. If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! [2] In Spain, Germany, France, Italy, etc if you get a degree in STEM it means you put a lot of effo…

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning - primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. This feels like it links back to the same problem as everything else - as time goes on automation removes less skilled jobs, and more and more people will need to do more ski…

I don't think we're at the point where degrees are required for everything, but we are at the point where they are required for almost all decent jobs that lead to decent lifestyles, especially in the US. We've been at this point for decades. This is the major point of contention in the US and around the world. In the US specifically, Americans want a good life without working for the education it requires. Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today. That's why you get so many immigrants focusing on education and so many Americans focusing, I kid you not, on anti intellectualism and hate for learning. These ideas then transform into hate for immigrants because "they're taking our jobs" when in reality, the Americans claiming that don't have the mental capacity to even reach such a conclusion because they have trouble even graduating from our high schools, high schools that are some of the most dumbed down on earth. Talk about entitlement. Yes, this was possible in America in the sixties and seventies, but the world has changed and Americans haven't kept up. I'm certain this situation is playing itself out in plenty of other places in the world, but it's especially egregious here because of our high tech economy. I see this disparity between the educated and non educated, between urban and rural people as the core of much domestic and international conflict in the world this past a hundred years or so, a conflict that seems to have no easy solutions or simple answers.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#242

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

Wildgoose wrote: post #197

jamienicol wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a very narrow view of who's paying for whom, which is what happens when education becomes a commodity. My tuition was paid for by the Scottish government, so by the UK tax payer. Now as a higher rate tax payer I help pay for everyone else, including English students who don't earn enough to pay back their fees. And as a resident of London, my tax will be counted as English by the books, reinforcing the idea…

Having chosen to move to London you are now an English tax-payer with less political representation than you had previously. That is your choice. Why should those of us who are English and who wish to continue to live in England amongst our friends and families have less political representation than those living elsewhere in the "United" Kingdom? As for London, it is the capital of England just like Edinburgh is the…

[deleted]

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#243

Post by candiodari » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

flurrything wrote: post #152

simongray wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't get paid more for getting more students, or if more students pass. Normally people go to public universities, which are pretty good, and their teachers have more or less a fixed salary. There's no way you can generalise about incentive structures like that for an entire continent. In my country, only public universities exist and the incentive structure is decided politically. Currently, universities get…

Do the professors on that university get paid more for having more students? Because in Germany for example, this is not the case. The university departments get different amount of money depending on the amount of students they have, but this money cannot be spent freely (e.g. on increasing professor's salaries), but must be spent for education-related things like hiring more TAs, which is something that departments…

What you mean to say is that professors are heavily incentivized to shop out TAs to companies in trade for "consultancy fees", or even board positions ...

Entire departments are built on this principle.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#244

Post by throw2016 » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

ethelward wrote: post #135

skookumchuck wrote: post #88

"Norway’s huge oil and gas sector is the clear driving factor behind the nation’s economic boom over the last three decades" And there it is - a nation sitting on black gold is wealthy.

Like Venezuela, for instance? You can't deny that Norway adopted a peculiar way of managing its good fortune, IMHO far better that what you can find in Russia, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc. It's the only “oil” state I know to be so good at it.

This perspective completely misses the politics and history of these countries.

Colonialism, interference from external powers, exploitative capitalism, being caught in the middle of the 'great game' can all derail any natural resource wealth like in Venezuela.

Saudi Arabia is a very unique history and continues to exist as a feudal regressive regime with global support and approval while Saddam, Gaddafi and Assad who would be Mother Teresa in comparison to the Saudis in terms of women's rights and religious freedom get the full 'human rights demonization treatment' with their countries and people in tatters.

50 years later people may well wonder why these countries are so 'backward' with no context of what happened to them. Russia is nearly an entire continent with a dramatic history and is unique in nearly every way.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#245

Post by candiodari » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #72

Latty wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning - primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. This feels like it links back to the same problem as everything else - as time goes on automation removes less skilled jobs, and more and more people will need to do more ski…

Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning Yes and no. If it's a political goal that x% of the population must be awarded a degree, then the standards will need to be adjusted, and below a certain point, the value of the learning goes away as well.

Bingo. The only way to have "equality" is by making the standards far below what even an average student is capable of.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#246

Post by mockingbirdy » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #217

blattimwind wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Two people can Like many, they did this on a single income.

Society can't expect the value of labor to remain the same if you double the supply by adding women to it. Plus automation and globalization means no way Americans could continue consuming so much per capita more than the rest of the world. Unless via the use of force, usually military, which the US does but it's not as effective as before.

> Society can't expect the value of labor to remain the same if you double the supply by adding women to it.

This sounds funny if you think about it.

Women fought a long time for emancipation which also means they have the same obligations w.r.t work and other activities.

Now they work and the market corrected itself to account for the new labor supply. In the end: No one won except companies. Sounds like a bad deal in general.

- - -

I don't think that emancipation is bad. I think it's a good thing and necessary for social progress. But I think it's hilarious that good intentions can have these unwanted consequences. I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm too cynical to not laugh about it.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#247

Post by pfranz » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #75

endymi0n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my not so humble opinion, it all comes down to a short- vs. farsighted culture and the resulting fundamental attitude towards kids. In the US, kids are seen at worst a nuisance and at best a personal luxury. In most of the northern/western EU, kids are seen as the future workers, decision makers and keepers of the whole economy 30 years into the future. All of the symptoms you are seeing, be it maternal / paternal…

"In the US, kids are seen at worst a nuisance and at best a personal luxury." That's nonsense. The US is all about children. That doesn't result in long term thinking about their education or maternal/parental leave but children are not seen as a nuisance.

I see both perspectives. As a culture that supports kids the US is way behind on maternity/paternity leave, childcare, leisure time overall, healthcare, higher level education. I see the increase in recent generations leaving religion has created a gap in social support, too (not sure how this maps to places other than the US). The US has a huge consumer culture for kids; suburbs are one way for kids to grow up, cheap toys and entertainment. Movies and entertainment have notoriously targeted PG-13 in recent decades because they're the largest audience (most free time and disposable income).

I feel like in the US a century ago there were incentives to have more kids; need for labor, childhood mortality. These incentives have gone away and disincentives have taken their place; women entering the workforce, educating children until their mid-20s before entering the workforce as a career, and little things like the costs needed to raise a child[1]. We haven't really changed anything to improve those disincentives and the results speak for themselves. People are having fewer kids later in life.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#248

Post by Immortalin » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:19 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #166

jopsen wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that today's generations are joining companies that are heavily specialized. Unlike previous generations which could learn while the company learned. There are some vocational coding schools, but these won't prepare you to do real computer science. There are some vocational carpentry schools with increased focus on AutoCad and other analytical skills. But these won't equipt you to design bridges..

Sure, but there's no such thing as a combined education in plant physiology, embedded firmware development, and machine learning, so maybe employers should just get off their high horse and train people. (This is a reference to several jobs posted at MIT and in other Cambridge, MA workplaces on various occasions.)

Applied ML on IoT-controlled Psychedelic plant husbandry?

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#249

Post by mockingbirdy » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

antpls wrote: post #191

mockingbirdy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people can afford to take risks and earn even more while some simply cannot. I would like to know what you mean specifically. When you are jobless, the German system gives you enough to rent an apartment and eat something. It's not luxurious, but it's better than those anti-social systems like those in the US. You don't have to worry about getting enough food. When these basic needs are met, you are free to op…

When I talk about environment and legacy, I talk about your parents, your grand-parents and your grand-grand-parents. If you are born Germans and your parents are Germans since generations, there are higher chances they teached you how the system works since the first day. It's probable they accumulated a social network of friendly lawyers, politicians, or any other persons the system already rewarded, and told you w…

There are many assumptions in your comment - maybe I can provide some anecdata: My mother is from india (so I know what you mean with the problems for foreigners) and my parents were not wealthy for a long time. They still aren't extremely wealthy and I can make more money than my parents combined (but without that job security).

All they've told me was how important education is. But I've dropped out of college anyways. I wasn't very good in school. I didn't care.

I agree with you in general, but not everyone who's able to achieve something got it naturally. My father works 50-70 hours a week and he was the best in school because he had no other chance to study otherwise (he wasn't allowed to get a degree and needed the best grades to get an exception; GDR was a hostile place for intelligent people). My grandfather worked since he was 13 (this was shortly after the war; his father died).

I'm not the type of person who thinks that the world owes anyone anything.

I've learned about how the system works in economics classes in school (we had a very good teacher who showed us the BS in the world) and through psychology books.

There are many money-poor people who give their children the opportunity to grow. As I've said: Many times, it isn't about money and privilege. It's about attitude and mindset - a specific mindset can lead to privileges. Not taking anything for granted, for example. Not immerse oneself in self-pity.

- - -

I still agree with you in general, because the numbers are very clear about it: Social mobility is very low in Germany.

Most poor people have other problems holding them back e.g. some parents were abused in their childhood, so they're unable to give proper emotional support. Many are jealous of the opportunities their kids have (not because they're bad people, but because they never felt loved). Escaping those vicious cycles is extremely hard and we're currently not doing enough to change it. But I still think that our current system enables people who value education and have a certain mental health to move upwards - much better than the system in the US. You don't need to be rich to get good education here or accumulate big debt.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#250

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 14, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

mockingbirdy wrote: post #246

lotsofpulp wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society can't expect the value of labor to remain the same if you double the supply by adding women to it. Plus automation and globalization means no way Americans could continue consuming so much per capita more than the rest of the world. Unless via the use of force, usually military, which the US does but it's not as effective as before.

> Society can't expect the value of labor to remain the same if you double the supply by adding women to it. This sounds funny if you think about it. Women fought a long time for emancipation which also means they have the same obligations w.r.t work and other activities. Now they work and the market corrected itself to account for the new labor supply. In the end: No one won except companies. Sounds like a bad deal…

Women who now finally have freedom due to the financial security afforded to them by being able to work certainly "won".