The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea • Hacker News Board

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#411

Post by verall » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:33 PM UTC

mbrameld wrote: post #358

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“flexdesks” or “hot desking” is just about the most juvenile reaction to working from home I can imagine. If a company believes it will gain more from “saving money” on open plan offices or hot desking than it will from just paying more to facilitate more and better work from employees through buying the best tools (a private office is a tool like a keyboard or ergonomic chair), it’s self-evidently a company to get f…

By your logic, the flight school I'm currently attending should have one helicopter per student/instructor pair since we could get more flying done without having to schedule helicopters. From the point of view of the instructor and student this is a fantastic idea. From a business standpoint it really doesn't make much sense. They do, however, give each student their own headset and view-limiting devices. We could s…

I don't think that's their logic at all.

The logic is that, compared to the salaries of software engineers and revenues of many tech companies, desks and keyboards are extremely cheap.

The cost of a ~$100k engineer spending 10m per day looking for a desk, with 8h day and 200k total employee cost to employer, is ~4k/yr. Paired with the cost the company pays in developer annoyance potentially causing higher turnover or lower productivity , buying more desks and office space is likely the cheaper option. One helicopter per student is obviously not so...

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#412

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:39 PM UTC

notyourwork wrote: post #223

pnw_hazor wrote: post #217

Companies treat programmers as costs that should be minimized. They manage programmers like children (toys and treats) or stenographers(typing pools) because it is cheap. Whereas, lawyers in law firms are considered revenue generators and they are treated that way. When I switched from programming to lawyering, one of the biggest differences I noticed was how the law firm staff and office manager were always trying t…

Very interesting, as someone who is interested in law and currently an SDE I would love to hear more about your transition. Did you all along plan on this, did it come after your engineering career, at what point did you become an attorney. For reference, I am 8 years into a software engineering career and heavily considering going to law school.

I didn't plan on it but I always considered LS an option.

I have a Computer Engineering degree and programmed for 10+ years, mainly at startups that didn't pan out with some contracting thrown in there too. During that time some of my friends went into IP law and were doing well.

I eventually reached my last straw with startups and bit the bullet and went to LS at night while doing programming.

IMO industry experience is more important than LS rank/performance for patent attorneys. (I went to a local third tier LS school and had no problem.) It is your understanding of the technical subject matter that will set you apart from other patent attorneys especially from those w/o much industry experience. That said, I only work on computer/software patents, never gadgets or circuits.

Downsides include: drafting good patents is more exhausting for me than programming; the job can get grindy at times; and it also kind of sucks being in the service industry, dealing with those pesky clients can sometimes be a hassle. Being a diva programmer was more fun in that aspect.

Also, LS is expensive, my school charges about 2X what it did when I went. I went at night and worked at programming jobs during the day. This reduced my opportunity cost by at least $400K.

Upsides include: meeting a lot of smart people; learning about what they are building; flexible hours; nice office; decent pay; not having to build the inventions -- we just talk about cool parts and don't have to spend n-months or years getting them work; and not having to program for work.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#413

Post by mlthoughts2018 » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:41 PM UTC

mbrameld wrote: post #358

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“flexdesks” or “hot desking” is just about the most juvenile reaction to working from home I can imagine. If a company believes it will gain more from “saving money” on open plan offices or hot desking than it will from just paying more to facilitate more and better work from employees through buying the best tools (a private office is a tool like a keyboard or ergonomic chair), it’s self-evidently a company to get f…

By your logic, the flight school I'm currently attending should have one helicopter per student/instructor pair since we could get more flying done without having to schedule helicopters. From the point of view of the instructor and student this is a fantastic idea. From a business standpoint it really doesn't make much sense. They do, however, give each student their own headset and view-limiting devices. We could s…

Providing one helicopter per student would be cost-ineffective for flight schools.

Providing one office per knowledge worker would be cost-effective for companies.

Flight schools have a hard time surviving if they make grossly wasteful or negligent expenditures for the sake of politics and optics, because they are low-capitalized businesses with often much lower revenue per employee and less growth opportunity than highly capitalized tech companies.

A high capitalized tech company, on the other hand, can piss away money on dipshit open floor plan offices, roof decks, $500,000 Christmas parties, etc., and the executive committee doesn’t care. They have very little incentive to optimize that spending and often make spending choices based on the capricious and whimsical desires of an adult-baby CEO who is more like Veruca Salt than a competent business person.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#414

Post by Pica_soO » Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

hw wrote: post #378

Pica_soO wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard that argument before, mostly its by people for whom the office is some sort of social life replacement/ bro club experience. Also there are sun-king-middle-managers who only get that power feeling when a huge crowd of admirers tours the hallways with them. All of it is completely unrelated with work. And sort of sad, although its a good thing, that no matter what happens, humans will needs humans.

I've worked with teams big and small, mostly as an individual contributor, and the issue with not having a good team culture is you get churn. You can't have good team culture when half of your teammates are just at home most of the time, or if you're at home and the rest of your team is in the office. People jump around companies too often because they get jaded, bored, enticed by better offers elsewhere, and withou…

Well, churn is just capitalism at work. The only stock you gain for loyalty is the laughing-stock, of everyone else who gets rewarded for double-jumping every ship.

This is the world they wanted, when they dissolved unions and other pillars of stability, one mans grape-vine over "Unreliable mercenaries" is another mans freedom of choice.

Here's to Sienna and Florence, their high towers may stand a thousand year or crumble under the siege tomorrow, no-one cares only the chests in the deep cellars are whats important.

All those walls build to create synthetic loyalty- be it out of fear of being law suited for knowledge transfer, or cartels to avoid the rising prices of mercenary's - if history tells us one thing - in the end the war always wins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wars

"Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing, wes Gold ich trag, des Tod ich bring."

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#415

Post by jbronn » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 12:09 AM UTC

notyourwork wrote: post #389

jbronn wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not go to law school unless it's a passion that you're willing to sacrifice financial and mental well-being for. It's only "worth it" if you're able to attend an elite (top 10) institution -- otherwise, in an industry obsessed with status and prestige, you'll end up on the wrong side of the bimodal salary curve¹ struggling to pay your six figure student debt. BigLaw, IP (patents), and tax attorneys are the only sp…

This doesn't really answer any of the questions I asked but thanks for the perspective. I'm not worried about the financial cost and planning on focusing on IP law in the company I currently work at.

You must be independently wealthy to not worry about a $150k+ outlay for school.

I obtained a CS degree, worked in tech for several years, and decided to attend law school to study IP like you’re intending. I attended one of best schools for IP, and worked writing patents. Despite a great law firm and clients, the work was not stimulating and a net drain on society. I left to start my own company in tech again.

My work as a core Django developer during school was more fulfilling intellectually and professionally.

Studying law will not bring the prestige you’re seeking. I didn’t listen to the lawyers who told me that either.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#416

Post by jbronn » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 12:43 AM UTC

pnw_hazor wrote: post #412

notyourwork wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting, as someone who is interested in law and currently an SDE I would love to hear more about your transition. Did you all along plan on this, did it come after your engineering career, at what point did you become an attorney. For reference, I am 8 years into a software engineering career and heavily considering going to law school.

I didn't plan on it but I always considered LS an option. I have a Computer Engineering degree and programmed for 10+ years, mainly at startups that didn't pan out with some contracting thrown in there too. During that time some of my friends went into IP law and were doing well. I eventually reached my last straw with startups and bit the bullet and went to LS at night while doing programming. IMO industry experienc…

Another upside: after the bar, no one is going to make you whiteboard the rule against perpetuities.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#417

Post by anHelicopter » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 1:56 AM UTC

eneveu wrote: post #410

mbrameld wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your logic, the flight school I'm currently attending should have one helicopter per student/instructor pair since we could get more flying done without having to schedule helicopters. From the point of view of the instructor and student this is a fantastic idea. From a business standpoint it really doesn't make much sense. They do, however, give each student their own headset and view-limiting devices. We could s…

The cost of an helicopter seems like an obvious reason.

It's a helicopter, not an helicopter.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#418

Post by chrisbennet » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 1:57 AM UTC

tephra wrote: post #43

tombert wrote: post #6

The argument of "increased collaboration" that I keep hearing is kind of negated when people have the soccer game on and you're bombarded with constant cheering, which is my current situation. Even when soccer is over, you have to contend with people playing grab-ass all over the office, or jerks (like me) with annoyingly loud keyboards. The modicum of utility of me "jumping into a conversation" really goes out the w…

Here's a recent story from our open office. We have a couple of mobprogramming stations with big televisions, each team has 1 or 2 of these so there are about 5 in a 20m radius from where I sit. When the first game that Sweden played all of a sudden 3 of the televisions are turned on and of course they are _not(!)_ in sync. So here I am trying to do some work with three TVs games all slightly delayed from each other,…

OMG, you need to run away from that place!

Until I read that, the worst I’d ever heard was a friend who worked next to a slamming fire door. He had to wear hearing protection/ear muffs. Get this: he was the PhD physisist that did all the hard math coding for the company.

He has a private office where he works now thank goodness.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#419

Post by sushid » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 2:05 AM UTC

loco5niner wrote: post #392

sushid wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also wondered about that. I didn't feel like I had tinnitus (I have a very mild one) until after I moved my apartment to a noisier street and wore earplugs for about 2 weeks. Now I have a very faint one that "toggles" once or twice a week and ALWAYS when I wear earplugs.

Same here! I had very faint tinnitus (from headphones in the office all day), but after we moved offices (open office space) and I started wearing earplugs UNDER my hearing protection earmuffs, my tinnitus started going wild. I think it's because when you double-stuff like I did, the only thing you can hear at that point is the ringing in your ears (and high heels on concrete floors). My brain seemed to lock in on th…

Has it gotten any better since? I feel like mine has on a given day but it actually feels worse than ever before when I wear earplugs.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#420

Post by jSully24 » Fri, Jul 13, 2018, 2:10 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #355

jSully24 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"nobody is going to say it's bad" It's not about saying "it's bad". It's about talking about what might be better. Flat hierarchy or not, anyone should be able to bring up the topic. And if you can't, that's a bad place to be working. There should be some kind of trust between people. You don't need any kind of hierarchy to have real leaders. Every where I've been, you just step up and try to make it happen. Most of…

anyone should be able to bring up the topic It's not like people never actually comment on how they'd like to change their job environment. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the most common complaint among humans in general! Do you have any examples of non-management fomenting a change in the entire physical architecture of their office, or other large change in a company?

Yes. I’ll get them up soon.