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The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

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Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#291

Post by your-nanny »

mikestew wrote: post #280
your-nanny wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on hn it seems to be the norm to down vote opinions you disagree with or facts that you'd like to ignore. some I'm down voting you. also people are animals too.

Though much has been discussed on the topic, I consider down votes to be for those comments that don't contribute to the discussion, even if I might agree. In your case, however, I not only disagree, I don't feel your comment has contributed positively to the discussion. Whereas the parent comment did bring a different viewpoint to the discussion, though I might disagree with them. In conclusion, have a down vote. Pa…

I'm happy with that. I was just kvetching really (and I didn't actually downvote). I strongly feel that votes should be used as you statrd., and not in lieu of a reply expressing disagreement through the courtesy of a reply. my complaint really is that downvoting is so capricious. people who hate dogs in the office downvoted me for saying that dogs have not been a problem at my office. the statement was factual, respectful and related. meanwhile I can say some snarky thing and get upvoted like crazy. it's just silly

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#292

Post by your-nanny »

forgottenpass wrote: post #265
your-nanny wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we have dogs in the office. they're quiet and most people love them. in any case they are the least of the distractions...and usually only if you made the miserable decision to eat lunch at desk (which in an open office can be even more of a nuisance)

Dogs are fun to have around. I love to give them scratches and bellyrubs when I need a distraction from frustration. I'm allergic and my arms will get itchy but it's worth it. This thread of Hacker News kvetching has really lost focus on the case against open offices. This reads like a contest of who can be the most uptight in the office.

I agree.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#293

Post by mahesh_rm »

fludlight wrote: post #281
tluyben2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why it should be a mix. I get zero coding done in an open office. Networking, sales etc yes, but programming nope. None. So a courtyard office works best for me.

What's a courtyard office?

I assume the office space of whoever manage to GTFO of the messy main office environment.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#294

Post by tyoma »

RandallBrown wrote: post #117

To throw some more anecdotes in with the rest of the comments, I love open offices. I've had my own office and found it lonely and boring. I never got less work done than at that job. Everything took longer because I had to stand up and walk to talk to my team. Instant messaging sort of worked, but if they didn't respond immediately, you didn't know if it was because they missed the message or they weren't actually i…

Thanks for posting this. I also find single offices lonely and isolating. It is much easier to both help people and get help in an open office environment versus the friction and isolation of single person offices.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#295

Post by Florin_Andrei »

Androider wrote: post #45
tomtheelder wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is one of HN's favorite topics to bash on while completely ignoring the primary reason why the open office exists and persists. It's not about collaboration, it's not about socializing, it's about money. Just like all other business related decisions.

It's a penny wise, pound foolish decision though, considering engineering salaries. It's hard to quantify, and often an externalized cost to the facilities management and decision makers, but my own experience suggests open offices are incredibly expensive as a negative multiplier on the engineering output. The "actual work" starts getting done in the evenings, on planes, and on weekends, while the business hours are…

> It's a penny wise, pound foolish decision though, considering engineering salaries.

Yeah, but people are replaceable. Whereas you, as an entrepreneur, only have one life to live. Choose wisely.

/s

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#296

Post by pnw_hazor »

ghaff wrote: post #255
pnw_hazor wrote: post #217

Companies treat programmers as costs that should be minimized. They manage programmers like children (toys and treats) or stenographers(typing pools) because it is cheap. Whereas, lawyers in law firms are considered revenue generators and they are treated that way. When I switched from programming to lawyering, one of the biggest differences I noticed was how the law firm staff and office manager were always trying t…

One suspects that businesses in general have tilted too far towards having highly paid professionals doing everything self-service just because they can and the costs are sort of hidden. Playing travel agent for an hour suddenly makes a lot less sense when it keeps you from billing out at $500/hr. for some client. ADDED: The one time I did some legal work (for an expert witness report) the ticking clock made me very…

More than once my boss has had to remind me that we pay the staff to do such-and-such so I can keep billing.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#297

Post by georgeecollins »

I think it is telling that proponents of open offices usually don't mention what seem to be their biggest advantages: they are cheap, they let you pack people in like sardines, they make it easy to move people around if they quit or their is an reorganization. They make it easier to obscure hierarchies of status in the workplace. I worked for a company in SV with open offices, where the head of the department reserved a very nice conference room all day, four days a week. But like us he did not have an office.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#298

Post by dazc »

loco5niner wrote: post #235
WorkLifeBalance wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get any generic in-ear earphones and thread those under a pair of 3M peltor optime III ear defenders. You can listen to even fairly quiet music and you won't hear any conversations around you.

I've done this. I have a whole collection of over-the-ear ear-protection. I can still hear my co-workers. It also made my tinnitus worse. Thanks though.

'It also made my tinnitus worse.'

I've found any earplug or headphone option will make my tinnitus worse - sometimes days afterwards.

I explain my tinnitus to non-sufferers as being on the threshold of noise intolerance 24/7.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a lawsuit against any of these companies that expect employees to damage their health just so they can save on floorspace?

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#299

Post by jSully24 »

rhizome wrote: post #50
jSully24 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't the team agree on some norms of behavior for this very situation? We're supposed to be collaborating, so how about we all collaborate on where to take a phone call, what is and is not acceptable for noice in our work space? If we can or can not microwave fish leftovers and eat our desk? The important stuff. A critical piece of making the open space work is people being open with another. For watching big ev…

Why can't the team agree on some norms of behavior for this very situation Who is going to assume the authority when a company is promoted as having a flat hierarchy, or holocracy, etc.? If the CEO is speakerphoning or fomenting adhoc floor meetings in an open-plan, nobody is going to say it's bad.

"nobody is going to say it's bad"

It's not about saying "it's bad". It's about talking about what might be better. Flat hierarchy or not, anyone should be able to bring up the topic.

And if you can't, that's a bad place to be working. There should be some kind of trust between people.

You don't need any kind of hierarchy to have real leaders. Every where I've been, you just step up and try to make it happen. Most of the time a bunch of other people are going to "thank you!". It won't always work and you can be diplomatic in how you approach it. But just make it happen and stop waiting for someone else to do it.

And if they, whomever they is, don't like it, move on.

Re: The open-plan office is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea

#300

Post by nucleardog »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #230
dalbasal wrote: post #141

--> Few managers have a schedule that allows, or even requires, long hours of uninterrupted time dedicated to a single creative pursuit. As a manager in an open plan office, I will say this is categorically untrue. I have twelve people interupting me constantly, and I need to stay late or start early regularly so that I can get some uninterrupted work time. It also tends to work against self sufficiency. Rather than…

I need to stay late or start early regularly so that I can get some uninterrupted work time Why? Your employers dysfunctional work environment isn't your problem to fix.

This is where I draw the line, and I've made it clear to those in charge here.

If you need me to work overtime because we're unexpectedly busy, then I'll work overtime. I'm not subsidizing your choice to cheap out on the office environment with my personal time.

Not that anything's changed, but since they're unwilling to try and address the issue I also have no guilt and receive no reprimand for the wasted hours.

(But my frustration with my inability to be productive here was definitely a huge driving factor in my decision to leave.)

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