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“I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

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Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#71

Post by [deleted] »

Y_Y wrote: post #42
sjm-lbm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's PHP and not Python, but every time I read something like this from a major open source figure, I always think of this old PHP mailing list thread: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696

That's a good read. I feel like the "customer is always right" mentality does quite a bit of harm to OSS support. Also reminds me of that dev (who I can't seem to search up) who had their email printed as part of a open-source software license in a car manual and would get ridiculous email from people who had car trouble.

[deleted]

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#72

Post by vxNsr »

sjm-lbm wrote: post #15
bla2 wrote: post #5

> I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(

It's PHP and not Python, but every time I read something like this from a major open source figure, I always think of this old PHP mailing list thread: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696

O_o I wonder how many times I've spoken to someone and didn't realize who it was/how important they were because of the anonymity of the internet.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#73

Post by nemild »

technologia wrote: post #59
bla2 wrote: post #5

> I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. Leading a large open source project must be terrible in this age of constant outrage :-(

On a related note, we've always had the constant outrage, its the internet that allowed it to become more apparent.

In 2018, we can finally use our advances in data science and social network design to precisely target outrage and make it maximally engaging.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#74

Post by cbhl »

whalesalad wrote: post #14

Yikes. Python has become so hugely popular and is used for so many different use cases that I fear the ecosystem is going to really struggle to find consistency and direction without a dictator.

Guido is only human. And one day, he will die. (Hopefully a long, long time from now.)

Guido is not asking Python to live without a dictator. Guido is asking Python to learn how to live without Guido, so that Python may outlive him.

This is a tale as old as time. Apple lives on with only memories of Steve Jobs. The United States lives on with only memories George Washington.

For some inspiration I'd recommend listening to the track "One Last Time" from the Hamilton musical:

"One Last Time" - Hamilton At The White House #ObamaLegacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV4UpCq2azs

Original Broadway Cast Recording on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEqnXNsAFL8

Original Broadway Cast Recording on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/track/0Iys022UwQ8xBfxE1g4nWZ

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#75

Post by krylon »

I haven't used Python in many years, but it was the first programming language I really could say I loved. Everything was was either completely in tune with my intuition or well-documented.

I had a lot of fun with Python, and I learned a lot about programming by (ab)using it. I am very grateful to Guido van Rossum and the work he has done, and I wish him all the best for his future.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#76

Post by 21 »

As someone who used Python for more than a decade, a few months ago when I saw PEP 572 and that Guido liked it I knew that it would be by far the most controversial one ever.

And I was very concerned that there was no outside community involvement. This is one where there should have been a lot of publicity around, and the community should have been asked (on r/python, r/programming, HN, ...)

It's sad to see this, but it's not surprising to me. In general the Python community at large accepted Guido's decisions, but this one was too much of a shock, and when the python-dev discussions where so heated, you can only imagine the response from outside.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#77

Post by 3rdAccount »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #58
whalesalad wrote: post #14

Yikes. Python has become so hugely popular and is used for so many different use cases that I fear the ecosystem is going to really struggle to find consistency and direction without a dictator.

Maybe we'll try something like a triumvirate? As best I can tell there are basically three areas where Python is dominant: web, data science, and academia. A single leader for each of those spheres could form a council where BDFL-level decisions could be made by fiat. Each community could then form whatever organization they felt necessary to choose who to send to the triumvirate. As as check on the power of the triu…

This sounds familiar:)

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#78

Post by cbhl »

coldtea wrote: post #62
jnwatson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was controversial syntax, inline assignment-as-expression. There's always a tension between "keep it simple stupid" and "let's make it better", especially when a large user demographic of Python are non-professional-programmers. Interestingly, C++ is going through the same process, with lots of great ideas being proposed, but the sum total of them being an even more complicated language (on top of what is probably…

> Python 3 breakage and async turned out to be prescient, fantastic decisions. Async maybe. Python 3 breakage? Did you forgot the /s tag?

I think there are people on both sides of this fence.

Google is still largely Python 2, but my impression is that Facebook actually managed to make the transition to Python 3 after putting in the right presubmit checks.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#79

Post by technologia »

nemild wrote: post #73
technologia wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, we've always had the constant outrage, its the internet that allowed it to become more apparent.

In 2018, we can finally use our advances in data science and social network design to precisely target outrage and make it maximally engaging.

Not to dismiss your point, but outrage on the internet is like a car wreck, its terrible that it happened but everyone on the road still wants to check it out and put their 2 cents in.

Re: “I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being BDFL”

#80

Post by anothergoogler »

adamnemecek wrote: post #31

Even though I write python only if it’s going to be like 200 loc tops, it’s insane how gracefully the language has aged. It came out in 91, thus predating for example Java. Fun fact, I believe the very first google scraper was written in it. At the same time I can’t wait for the next language to replace it.

Python hasn't changed much, but the world around it has. For better or worse, when jobs in the language were few and far between, it was a friendlier and less competitive community.
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