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Interrobang

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Re: Interrobang

#101

Post by crazygringo »

shemtay wrote: post #100
carapace wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Replacing "th" with "θ" would really be a "re-placement": Theta and the "voiced dental fricative"[1] were smeared together in Old English long ago.[2] I.e. "there" and "theater" are two different "th"'s.[3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th_(digraph)#Voiced_fricative_... [3] English speakers: if you pay attention to how you speak those two words you'l…

I can't think of any pair of English words that are distinguished by a voiced vs unvoiced dental fricative at the same location, c.f. 'sue' and 'zoo'. Does any such pair exist?

Took me a while (I taught EFL for years and it never came up), but I can come up with two:

- "thy" and "thigh"

- "either" and "ether"

Re: Interrobang

#102

Post by ggambetta »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #94
ggambetta wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do use inverted opening marks, but I've never seen mismatched opening and closing marks (until your comment!). Not sure if that's what you were asking, though.

Also, if I were to use mismatched opening and closing marks, I'd invert the order, question mark first and bang later

We do invert the order (I'd say "properly nest") of the symbols when we use both interrogation and exclamation together, e.g. ¿¡qué!?

Re: Interrobang

#103

Post by garmaine »

crazygringo wrote: post #101
shemtay wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of any pair of English words that are distinguished by a voiced vs unvoiced dental fricative at the same location, c.f. 'sue' and 'zoo'. Does any such pair exist?

Took me a while (I taught EFL for years and it never came up), but I can come up with two: - "thy" and "thigh" - "either" and "ether"

It’s tellig that the first involves an archaic word no longer in use. And in my pronunciation (coastal California) the second pair differ in the vowel not the consonant. I pronounce them both as in “thy”.

Re: Interrobang

#104

Post by kps »

carapace wrote: post #91
crazygringo wrote: post #86

My problem with the interrobang, besides the fact it's unnecessary ("?!" does just fine, the same way we don't need to replace "th" with "θ"), is that it's so damned ugly and hard to distinguish . The counter [1] -- the open space between the vertical bar and the question mark curve -- is just too cramped ("‽"), so it's aesthetically unbalanced at large sizes, and just looks like a question mark with an accidental sm…

FWIW, Replacing "th" with "θ" would really be a "re-placement": Theta and the "voiced dental fricative"[1] were smeared together in Old English long ago.[2] I.e. "there" and "theater" are two different "th"'s.[3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th_(digraph)#Voiced_fricative_... [3] English speakers: if you pay attention to how you speak those two words you'l…

Not to mention that the English letters were ð and þ rather than θ.

Re: Interrobang

#105

Post by dahart »

carapace wrote: post #91
crazygringo wrote: post #86

My problem with the interrobang, besides the fact it's unnecessary ("?!" does just fine, the same way we don't need to replace "th" with "θ"), is that it's so damned ugly and hard to distinguish . The counter [1] -- the open space between the vertical bar and the question mark curve -- is just too cramped ("‽"), so it's aesthetically unbalanced at large sizes, and just looks like a question mark with an accidental sm…

FWIW, Replacing "th" with "θ" would really be a "re-placement": Theta and the "voiced dental fricative"[1] were smeared together in Old English long ago.[2] I.e. "there" and "theater" are two different "th"'s.[3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th_(digraph)#Voiced_fricative_... [3] English speakers: if you pay attention to how you speak those two words you'l…

Icelandic still retains the Old English letters for voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives. Icelandic is said to be the closest modern language to Old English.

ð ("eth", voiced) and þ ("thorn", unvoiced). So you could write "ðere" and "þeater", for words that sound correct but don't make any sense in either language. :)

Fun fact, thorn is the reason for today's archaic phrase "Ye olde", which was always pronounced "The old". Print shops didn't have a thorn character, so they substituted y instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)

* Kind of a tangent, but I'm also fascinated by Icelandic's unvoiced nasal fricative, a sound we don't have in English, and something that seems hard to do when you have a cold or runny nose.

Re: Interrobang

#106

Post by garmaine »

Is there a distinction between ?! and !?

To me there is a subtle difference, emphasizing the punctuation that comes first.

If so, maybe we should just accept as standard using two punctuation and allow context or intent to determine ordering.

Re: Interrobang

#107

Post by dahart »

crazygringo wrote: post #101
shemtay wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of any pair of English words that are distinguished by a voiced vs unvoiced dental fricative at the same location, c.f. 'sue' and 'zoo'. Does any such pair exist?

Took me a while (I taught EFL for years and it never came up), but I can come up with two: - "thy" and "thigh" - "either" and "ether"

Maybe bath and bathe? Breath and breathe?

Also found this, which agrees with yours and adds teethe::teeth, and wreathe::wreath.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-minimal-pairs-between-vo...

Re: Interrobang

#108

Post by crazygringo »

garmaine wrote: post #103
crazygringo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me a while (I taught EFL for years and it never came up), but I can come up with two: - "thy" and "thigh" - "either" and "ether"

It’s tellig that the first involves an archaic word no longer in use. And in my pronunciation (coastal California) the second pair differ in the vowel not the consonant. I pronounce them both as in “thy”.

"either" can be pronounced two ways in the first vowel, "ee" (like "eek!") or "eye" (like "eyeball"). Same as "neither". To compare with "ether" I'm assuming the first.

But "ether" can only be pronounced with unvoiced "th". If you pronounce it voiced, that would be very unusual. Are you sure? Check out:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ether

Re: Interrobang

#109

Post by crazygringo »

dahart wrote: post #107
crazygringo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Took me a while (I taught EFL for years and it never came up), but I can come up with two: - "thy" and "thigh" - "either" and "ether"

Maybe bath and bathe? Breath and breathe? Also found this, which agrees with yours and adds teethe::teeth, and wreathe::wreath. https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-minimal-pairs-between-vo...

Bath/bathe and breath/breathe also change their vowels, so they wouldn't count.

But teeth/teethe is another good one! As for wreathe, that too... I didn't even know that was a word. :)

Re: Interrobang

#110

Post by garmaine »

crazygringo wrote: post #108
garmaine wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s tellig that the first involves an archaic word no longer in use. And in my pronunciation (coastal California) the second pair differ in the vowel not the consonant. I pronounce them both as in “thy”.

"either" can be pronounced two ways in the first vowel, "ee" (like "eek!") or "eye" (like "eyeball"). Same as "neither". To compare with "ether" I'm assuming the first. But "ether" can only be pronounced with unvoiced "th". If you pronounce it voiced, that would be very unusual. Are you sure? Check out: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ether

The question is about the "th". Neither one I pronounce voiced.
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