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Interrobang

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Re: Interrobang

#41

Post by falcor84 »

computator wrote: post #40

> For thousands of years, in some written languages, there was no space between words. People were expected figure out sentences and clauses while reading aloud. Really?! Addingspacesbetweenwordsseemslikeanobviousthingtodo. According to Wikipedia, spaces weren't added because: (1) Free form of speech is so continuous, adding inaudible spaces to manuscripts would have been considered illogical. (2) At a time when ink…

>I'm not convinced by reason #1 because words are distinct even in speech. No matter how fast or continuous your speech when you say, "The dog jumped", everyone will agree that "dog" is a distinct thing, even if you're illiterate.

Segmenting words is actually a quite complex cognitive task that takes a while to acquire, usually considered in the framework of statistical learning[0].

Another aspect here is that the concept of a word is somewhat fuzzy, with compound words[1] emerging quite naturally, particularly in some languages. For relatively recent examples of compounds in English, consider "website" and "cellphone" (both of which are now, as a separate step, gradually becoming the default meanings of "site" and "phone").

So I don't find it too surprising that once upon a time word segmentation was even more flexible.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_learning_in_langua...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_(linguistics)

Re: Interrobang

#42

Post by lifthrasiir »

Jarred wrote: post #7
hurpaDurpa wrote: post #4

This would really make for a great exception operator, for one-liner exception handling. (alert(null) ‽ console.log(error)); Better than: (x === null ? console.log(error) : alert(x)); EDIT: hey downvotes, let's play funny/not funny .

alternatively: // Would run console.error with the Error object (alert(x) ?: console.error);

This is indeed a form supported by GNU C extension [1] (but `?:` is not a single token, so `? :` is permitted).

[1] https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Conditionals.html#Conditi...

Re: Interrobang

#43

Post by toxik »

computator wrote: post #40

> For thousands of years, in some written languages, there was no space between words. People were expected figure out sentences and clauses while reading aloud. Really?! Addingspacesbetweenwordsseemslikeanobviousthingtodo. According to Wikipedia, spaces weren't added because: (1) Free form of speech is so continuous, adding inaudible spaces to manuscripts would have been considered illogical. (2) At a time when ink…

IIRC we actually don't pronounce most spaces unless we're being very clear, the sound is called an epiglottal stop.

Re: Interrobang

#45

Post by falcor84 »

jobigoud wrote: post #37
thanatos_dem wrote: post #28

As a daily user of the interrobang, I’ve just gotta say, how awesome is this‽ For any aspiring interrobangers, one thing that helps make them easier to use is to set up text replacements. I have replacements setup on my phone and computers to replace “?!” and “!?” with “‽” automatically.

For me "!?" means astonishment to the point of questioning, like "WTF!?", whereas "?!" is questioning emphasis, as if a meta exclamation would be applied to the entire question before it. "What are you gonna do now?!"

I usually consider them as applied one after the other:

?! is about first questioning and then usually being angry.

!? is about first having strong feelings and then questioning their origins.

So for me WTF would usually be followed by ?! but maybe it's just me.

Re: Interrobang

#46

Post by kungtotte »

falcor84 wrote: post #45
jobigoud wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me "!?" means astonishment to the point of questioning, like "WTF!?", whereas "?!" is questioning emphasis, as if a meta exclamation would be applied to the entire question before it. "What are you gonna do now?!"

I usually consider them as applied one after the other: ?! is about first questioning and then usually being angry. !? is about first having strong feelings and then questioning their origins. So for me WTF would usually be followed by ?! but maybe it's just me.

WTF is an interesting case because it can express both versions.

WTF?! with an emphasis on the question means you lack information about the subject, WTF!? with an emphasis on the exclamation means you know what occurred but you're expressing shock/outrage.

E.g. the first version is "I don't know what just happened" and the second is "I can't believe what just happened".

With an interrobang there's no way of expressing both versions.

Re: Interrobang

#47

Post by ithkuil »

drewrv wrote: post #32
combatentropy wrote: post #19

Maybe it was because he chose the ugliest of all possibilities. Some of the proposals were ingenious, the two marks combining into a new unity that still retains features of its two parents. But he just laid one mark over the other. It's muddled and mundane. Anyway, we have a convenient convention that works with what we have: lay out the sentence as a question, but end it with the exclamation point. Isn't that a sim…

Why can't we just use two punctuation marks?!

iies indeed, vuhii can't vvue dgust use tvuo gliiphs for sounds that are "obvious" combinations of other sounds?

Re: Interrobang

#48

Post by davidgay »

computator wrote: post #40

> For thousands of years, in some written languages, there was no space between words. People were expected figure out sentences and clauses while reading aloud. Really?! Addingspacesbetweenwordsseemslikeanobviousthingtodo. According to Wikipedia, spaces weren't added because: (1) Free form of speech is so continuous, adding inaudible spaces to manuscripts would have been considered illogical. (2) At a time when ink…

> I'm not convinced by reason #1 because words are distinct even in speech.

Not in all languages. Lookup "liaison" in French, e.g. (and a not uncommon complaint of people learning French is that they can't separate the words in spoken speech).

Re: Interrobang

#49

Post by ggambetta »

BjoernKW wrote: post #36

¡Why not go for the Spanish option? Indeed, there's an inverted variant: ⸘Do Spanish speakers actually use that‽

We do use inverted opening marks, but I've never seen mismatched opening and closing marks (until your comment!). Not sure if that's what you were asking, though.

Re: Interrobang

#50

Post by fyolnish »

ithkuil wrote: post #47
drewrv wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we just use two punctuation marks?!

iies indeed, vuhii can't vvue dgust use tvuo gliiphs for sounds that are "obvious" combinations of other sounds?

ies indeed vuhai can’t vee just use tvoo gliphs

Is a much more readable example I think.

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