Live data from Hacker News

Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

latimes.com

201–210 of 451 posts

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#201
The tech industry is unwell, in our case despite abundant cashflow it's based in the completely irrational.

Your salary would be a full 10-20% higher with average turnover numbers if it weren't wasted on modern tech recruiting practices. And your company would quickly have less than average turnover number to boot. You'd get organic interest, and would properly pay attention to employee and manager referral.

Hiring practices are almost entirely cargo cult, and much more value for companies is being destroyed in all these terrible HR practices that have been latched on to. To me it appears like empire building and a complete lack of understanding in how and who works.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#202
Yes, many employers have deflationary expectations in an inflationary environment. The most difficult part about disabusing them of this notion is that there are still too many current and potential employees who are all too willing to encourage this.

That's why I implore people to 1) know the value of their labor; 2) do the math concerning their (long-term) cost of living. Lots of folks seem to think that they can take a pay hit here or there just to get a foot in the door or tide themselves over, not understanding that they generally setting the bar for their future pay 1) because many (at least US) employers will ask for salary history; and 2) even if they don't, the information is probably available via a data broker.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#203
post #159
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, its pretty close to slavery. Theoretically, they could sue you if you don't work, although what happens in practice is that if the freelance is really fed up and talks to the end customer saying they want out (which the hiring company does not want you to do), they want to avoid problems with the customer and they will replace you with someone else after a few months. What they really don't want to do is to…

What if you just don't show up for work? They fire you, right? Do you have to pay some big cash penalty? Or is the hesitance just that you can't get a reference for your next gig?

Legally, they could sue you for the same value that they were charging the customer for your work until the end of the contract, which is the money that they lost by the contractor not working.

In practice, they will probably not do that as the HR team is busy with other things and the lawsuit might be bad PR, although a hiring manager that wants to get back to you for doing that might have the HR department sue you, legally they could do that.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#204
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do contract webdev work for a multi-national in the middle of nowhere in Connecticut. The london office posted a job that is exactly what I do but is paid 5 times less. At the Edinburgh office, 7 times less. Same company, same upper-upper-upper management, but VASTLY different pay scales. Its nuts to think about, especially when I can rent a full 3 bed/3 bath house with basement and garage for about 2 times less th…

Part of that cost of rental is location. London is a world class city, highly desirable by millions of people as a place to live. Connecticut isn't.

I completely get that, but I'm paid for the same position 5 times more. The wage they are providing my position in London isn't even livable without roomates. I could (if I wanted a terrible commute) afford a nice apartment in NYC for what I'm paid. If the UK gov't wasn't so anti-immigration, I could actually afford a pretty decent flat in London for what I'm paid as well (on top of the house I currently rent).

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#205
post #4

It’s interesting how much momentum there is in these processes. After several decades of big wage gains, during the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, the nominal increases could not be stopped, even as the economy weakened in the 1970s and 1980s. Back then all the wage cuts had to done through inflation. Nowadays there is no inflation, and no momentum to restart wage increases. This part of the article says it right: “””The u…

But people have been working for a decade and a half to open up global migration of workers, as well as allowing China and others to export whatever it wants at any price (and several other "details", like IP theft of course). When 2 markets merge, prices converge.

What are engineer wages in China, the Phillipines, India, ... ? Oh wait ...

Second: with opening up markets, ... if there is one well-known fact in economics it's that when money can move over a wider area it concentrates into fewer hands. The bigger the markets operated, the fewer rich there are. And therefore, the more "ultra" the ultra-rich are. The shareholder "wealth transfer" seems to me to be this effect playing out.

That explains some of it. And that's with the minimal opening up of borders that has occurred over the past 2 decades (ie. mostly the EU and America, and in terms of population it's not that much).

That's a bit of a question I have for globalists : global average wage is $2000. Not per month, not net after tax. Not actual dollars. That's yearly, before tax, PPP dollars, not actual dollars. (PPP dollars means it's $2000 worth of, say, food (say strawberries or big macs), but it's actually only $400 worth of things like Gold or perhaps more relevant, iPads/Phones, that have global prices)

If one opens up global labor migration, that's the average wage that will be seen worldwide, and that's the expected result. Note: I am NOT saying that letting 1% of people migrate will drop wages like a stone immediately. But it will move in that direction. Nor am I saying that this has anything to do with work attitudes or ...

The "big secrets" about the economy that must be denied because they are thoroughly at odds with policy that we want to pursue:

1) there is a global oversupply of labor. You could pick ~16% of humans worldwide, disappear everyone else, and have almost zero effect on the economy. That means wages everywhere (even in places with dismal wages like Bangladesh) are too high in market terms. And I would like to point out that at least 2/3rds of those 16% work for governments, directly or indirectly, and "if everyone just behaved correctly" we also wouldn't need them.

(and note: this cannot be fixed with minimum wage laws for obvious reasons)

2) The global economy is demand-limited. Producing more goods would NOT result in more sales. We have "everything we want" (in economic terms, that means everything you're willing to work extra for). This means, loosely stated, that the above problem does not just apply to workers, but to companies in general as well.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How and where did you find a US remote job whilst being/remaining in the EU? I'm a bit in the same street as you (freelancer, Belgium, previous experience with remote work). More on topic, I hear the same in Belgium, they want someone to work 24/7 basically for free and then they are surprised that the guy they hired isn't some kind of magical being that knows every language (for some reason this goes for both natura…

> How and where did you find a US remote job whilst being/remaining in the EU? I worked in Africa for a while, and got many American contacts there. I also have a very high ranked stackoverflow profile, and get offers from there. And I'm extremely active in the Python community. I'm not actively searching a job with an american company, but if I were, I would just apply to any american job offer that interest me as I…

mp3 is ok for me too

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#207
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My example comes from Greece where I reside for the past 9 months. People owning touristic buisnesses on the islands are moaning about how much they need more staff and can't find any, and they are arguing why younger people tend to not work and just receive benefits instead of going to work. The argument here that they won't understand though is that, 1st they are paying very low. They are all willing to pay the min…

I wonder if it's quite as simple as being reducible to salary as a single (or majority) variable. I tend to think people are willing to work a poorly paid job if there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel (career advancement, primarily). (As a casual outside observer, and with all due respect) My bet would be that a pervasive sense of pointlessness or helplessness in society is an equal partner along with…

There are only so many dollars you can shave off of your employment budget before people decide they do not have to bother.

It's an escalating problem in Eastern Europe in general. Our politicians are way too greedy. They lost all perspective. They try being a bit more insolent since the last year, they sit and wait -- no revolts, no fires, no pitchforks. So hey, these people don't mind! Let's get EVEN MORE money from them! Sadly it's how it has been going ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. Many elderly people say: "It was not all sunshine and rainbows back then either but at least the people had everything necessary to live respectful lives". They do have a point.

Thank the gods for internet and for me being a programmer ever since teenager. Otherwise I would probably live off social benefits as well.

It's very easy to demean people for being lazy or unmotivated or non-ambitious. But the reality is, the best career advancement ~85% of the people around here can hope for is an awful job with 2-3 hours of commuting in total for the day, for an income that exceeds the bare minimum needs with 5-10%. So it's pretty normal many decide not to bother, or to turn to petty crime.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#208
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few notes: After a few years of full time employment I received a bit over 300 euro a month I believe, for a full year, when I was fired myself. And I believe the maximum amount of time where you can be eligible for unemployment benefits over here in Greece is a year or so. I believe a large cause for the apathy in people who you'd expect to work these jobs is the fact that working a job like that doesn't move…

> Now what's the dream for these workers? They can never afford to save up on their 500 euro a month. They can never get a loan to open their own business. Work harder. Make more money if you want to do your own thing. Surely there are professionals in Greece making good money working as employees for others. What are they doing that the lazy uneducated worker is not? Do more of that and less complaining that you're…

You're suggesting they pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Put on some boots and try to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Let me know your vertical.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#209

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

If you're a senior software engineer, come to Sweden. You'll at least get 6000 usd/month as an employee. Management usually has a background in tech, you get lots of vacation, parental leave, etc. You're not expected to stay longer than 5 pm and working from home is common. There are many interesting jobs in finance, telecom, automotive, entertainment, medicine, defence, and there are plenty of startups. I work as a…

Darkness, cold, property market - no thanks.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a senior software engineer, come to Sweden. You'll at least get 6000 usd/month as an employee. Management usually has a background in tech, you get lots of vacation, parental leave, etc. You're not expected to stay longer than 5 pm and working from home is common. There are many interesting jobs in finance, telecom, automotive, entertainment, medicine, defence, and there are plenty of startups. I work as a…

Better yet, come to Switzerland and earn > 10K usd/ month; and on top of that, you pay only a fraction of the Swedish taxes.

Maybe, but what's the cost of living in Switzerland? And is it easy to get a job for someone only speaking English? And don't you have to pay for your own healthcare?
Post reply on HN