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A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

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Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#101

Post by jstarfish »

williamscales wrote: post #37
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ask them to confirm that they don't track this stuff in the first place I could see a reasonable case being made for collecting these data, storing them for a few weeks, and then deleting them, to protect against thieves. The problem here is that for the government to collect these data, they would need to follow certain processes. A private actor who isn't following those processes is placing those data with the g…

This seems to be the latest trick. The same thing was happening with the cell phone location data. We should start referring to this as "data laundering".

Outsourcing detective work has been going on for a long time. When the Marshals or bounty hunters are looking for fugitives, one of the first things they do is pull what is essentially your credit report (with strictly financial details redacted) to get your address history and last known whereabouts from the private sector collective.

All that extraneous data in your credit reports is up for sale to qualifying purchasers-- be it law enforcement, marketing firms, or financial institutions.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#102

Post by donarb »

tclancy wrote: post #56
User23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me google that for you: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/gun-sh...

Now can you Google the difference between a gun show and a mall for the commenter as well?

I would think this sort of thing would be of interest to gun owners as well. Some of the stores that are in the malls in the article sell sporting goods, including hunting gear.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#103

Post by GVIrish »

User23 wrote: post #100
GVIrish wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty sure if you’re drunk in public with your kids and get arrested you will in fact be forcibly separated. For a misdemeanor the police are absolutely not going to take someone's children and ship them to detention centers in other states with no clear way of getting them back or even getting in touch with them. Most of the time a misdemeanor means showing up to court and paying a fine. > Also this is a great ex…

If it doesn’t make sense then, at risk of being too frank, you aren’t actually thinking about higher order effects. In an otherwise intelligent person, which you clearly are, this indicates emotion is dominating reasoning. I get it, pedophrasty* is extremely effective rhetoric. Domestic criminals who get arrested for a misdemeanor while having their children along don’t get to bring them to jail or get immediately re…

Show me one instance in the US judicial system where children are forcibly taken from parents and shipped off to detention centers in other states when the parent has been charged with a misdemeanor.

Bottom line is that it is. Not. Done.

And it clearly is appropriate to 'think of the children' when cruelty is being purposefully inflicted on children as official government policy. There's no rational defense for that policy that is compatible with our legal system.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#104

Post by reaperducer »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #30
s73v3r_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better yet, ask them to confirm that they don't track this stuff in the first place.

> ask them to confirm that they don't track this stuff in the first place I could see a reasonable case being made for collecting these data, storing them for a few weeks, and then deleting them, to protect against thieves. The problem here is that for the government to collect these data, they would need to follow certain processes. A private actor who isn't following those processes is placing those data with the g…

I could see a reasonable case being made for collecting these data, storing them for a few weeks, and then deleting them, to protect against thieves.

I know some mall companies record license plate data on a daily basis to make sure the employees are parking in the way-way-way out employee designated parking areas.

How long that data is stored and who else gets to see it is anyone's guess.

Unfortunately, it you're on the mall's property, you have no legal right to not being surveilled by the mall.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#105

Post by HillaryBriss »

Spooky23 wrote: post #85
justboxing wrote: post #3

> A hallmark of Vigilant’s solution, the ability for agencies to share real-time data nationwide amongst over 1,000 agencies and tap into our exclusive commercial LPR database of over 5 billion vehicle detections, sets our platform apart. 5 Billion vehicle detections seems like an awfully high (and possibly made up) number. Even if you allow for the same vehicle to be detected 5 or 10 times, the total number of regis…

You could get to that just via chokepoints. Examples: The RFK/Triboro bridge in NYC gets 60M crossings annually. I95 at the North/Carolina border gets 14M cars a year. State DOTs publish this information for all interstate and many other highways, so it’s easy to piece see where the flows are. Additionally, DMVs sell all sorts of information, and auto repair and dealerships sell whatever DMV does not. It’s definitely…

holy crap. what kind of info are the DMVs selling? who are the buyers?

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#106

Post by User23 »

GVIrish wrote: post #103
User23 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn’t make sense then, at risk of being too frank, you aren’t actually thinking about higher order effects. In an otherwise intelligent person, which you clearly are, this indicates emotion is dominating reasoning. I get it, pedophrasty* is extremely effective rhetoric. Domestic criminals who get arrested for a misdemeanor while having their children along don’t get to bring them to jail or get immediately re…

Show me one instance in the US judicial system where children are forcibly taken from parents and shipped off to detention centers in other states when the parent has been charged with a misdemeanor. Bottom line is that it is. Not. Done. And it clearly is appropriate to 'think of the children' when cruelty is being purposefully inflicted on children as official government policy. There's no rational defense for that…

Actually it's done to US citizens routinely. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/us/family-separation-amer.... And before you quibble, recall that jail is for misdemeanors.

Again, your reasoning faculty has been overwhelmed by effective rhetoric. Take a deep breath, step back, and start using your left hemisphere.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#107

Post by reaperducer »

Spooky23 wrote: post #99
k_harper wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you comment on the scale of VIN reader deployments? They're harder to read because of the smaller size, but I'd guess they're less likely to be intentionally altered or obscured.

I cannot. I imagine that would require much better cameras and cost more. On my car the tamper prevention measures make it hard to read from many angles as well. I think the solution for the use case you describe is coming in 2020, where cars will be able to talk to each other and to road sensors. That technology will probably be used to collect mileage taxes and demand pricing as cars shift to electric, so identity…

No need to wait until 2020. Your car is already being tacked by sensors that detect the unique ID's of the transponders in your tires (used to tell your car the tires' air pressure).

And since most people don't change their tires very often, with enough sensors deployed in various locations (parking lots, drive-throughs, gas stations, etc...) it is very easy to develop patterns of movement and build a profile of an individual person.

It gets even worse when you realize that the tire sensor data can be date/timestamp correlated with your phone's bluetooth radio. So a pattern can be developed for inside movement, as well.

Big retail chains are already doing this (the bluetooth part). No need to have the Radio Shack electric eye bing-bong on the front door to count customers anymore. Now you can just tally the bluetooth IDs and not only tell how many customers you're getting, but how many UNIQUE customers you're getting, which areas of the store they visit most frequently, how long they linger at various displays.

And yes, they know if you're just there to use the bathroom, thanks to the phone you take with you in there.

I wonder if some day this behavior profiling will allow stores to refuse you entry because you've been there 20 times in the last six months and never bought anything, but used the bathroom every time.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#108

Post by ianleeclark »

tomohawk wrote: post #86
nerdponx wrote: post #78

The fact that private malls are even tracking license plates to begin with is disturbing. Obvious in hindsight, but disturbing.

Many malls are high crime areas. Car theft is often much higher at malls, for example. The owners of these malls have a responsibility to provide a safe environment. There have been a few malls in our area that closed after gang related activity and violence in their vicinity became known. If you are a mall owner and have this happen, would you not be remiss to take measures to try to know who is visiting your proper…

Yeah let's just continue to surrender freedoms to an increasingly violent police state because someone might steal a car.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#109

Post by weaksauce »

Skunkleton wrote: post #13

To me the issue here is that this data is collected in the first place. It seems wrong to me that private corporations are tracking my every move.

agreed. this is simply unacceptable... even LEO should have probable cause to pull you over and make your life inconvenient or at worst hell.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#110

Post by reaperducer »

Spooky23 wrote: post #85
justboxing wrote: post #3

> A hallmark of Vigilant’s solution, the ability for agencies to share real-time data nationwide amongst over 1,000 agencies and tap into our exclusive commercial LPR database of over 5 billion vehicle detections, sets our platform apart. 5 Billion vehicle detections seems like an awfully high (and possibly made up) number. Even if you allow for the same vehicle to be detected 5 or 10 times, the total number of regis…

You could get to that just via chokepoints. Examples: The RFK/Triboro bridge in NYC gets 60M crossings annually. I95 at the North/Carolina border gets 14M cars a year. State DOTs publish this information for all interstate and many other highways, so it’s easy to piece see where the flows are. Additionally, DMVs sell all sorts of information, and auto repair and dealerships sell whatever DMV does not. It’s definitely…

In Chicago you see people collecting this data all the time on Michigan Avenue, Rush Street, State Street, and Oak Street.

But it's Chicago, so they do it the old-fashioned way: A guy sitting in a lawn chair on the sidewalk with a clicker in each hand.

Seriously. Watch for it next time you're on a main shopping drag in that town.

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