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A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

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Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#91

Post by jsjohnst »

tomohawk wrote: post #86
nerdponx wrote: post #78

The fact that private malls are even tracking license plates to begin with is disturbing. Obvious in hindsight, but disturbing.

Many malls are high crime areas. Car theft is often much higher at malls, for example. The owners of these malls have a responsibility to provide a safe environment. There have been a few malls in our area that closed after gang related activity and violence in their vicinity became known. If you are a mall owner and have this happen, would you not be remiss to take measures to try to know who is visiting your proper…

You need to lay off the FUD! The reason these are installed generally has nothing to do with crime (outside parking enforcement at most). It’s done for marketing and tracking purposes. Brick and mortar stores are desperate for the kind of data that online retailers have access to about customers and the folks making the purchasing decisions generally don’t have the first clue about privacy implications.

Source: I worked for a company doing something vaguely similar (we covered the inside of stores, not the parking lot). I spent my time there working to provide best in class anonymization to only allow aggregate data.

As to your specific fear mongering questions:

> If a car shows up that is registered to someone on a warrant for a violent crime, should the mall owner do nothing? Not their business?

1) that data isn’t generally publicly available to them

2) that’s why you hire security guards

> What about a car registered to someone who lost their license due to DUI? What if that person frequents the mall and kills someone with their car?

1) again, not generally publicly available

2) what makes you think the drivers licenseless person could be the only driver

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#92

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

jumby wrote: post #36
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There should not be any expectation of privacy in regard to one’s license plate or the location of its sighting The Supreme Court has continuously recognized the difference between manual and sustained, remote and automated tracking, even in public spaces [1]. The "seismic shifts in digital technology" we are presently undergoing require vigilance to be maintained in respect of the Bill of Rights. [1] http://www.sc…

ALPR is not manual or sustained. It's a one-time photo of a vehicle at a specific location & time. The DPPA [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_Privacy_Protection_... ] already restricts who has the ability to convert from plate to actual personal information.

DPPA is toothless. NY residents get billed for toll violations on privately owned Ontario highways. That doesn't happen without the state handing over personal info on US citizens to a foreign company.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#93

Post by InclinedPlane »

mikeash wrote: post #38
CzechTech wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe don't try to cross the border illegaly then? Seems like a valid deterrent to me.

Indeed. While we’re at it, let’s institute summary execution for thieves. It’s bound to reduce crime.

We already have that in America. There are around a thousand summary executions for minor crimes a year in the US. You may be more familiar with them by the name "officer involved shootings".

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#94

Post by k_harper »

Spooky23 wrote: post #82
nerdponx wrote: post #78

The fact that private malls are even tracking license plates to begin with is disturbing. Obvious in hindsight, but disturbing.

I think that most people would be surprised at the scale of LPR deployments by both private ( http://drnrecovery.com/2016-trends-lpr-affiliates/ ) and public sector ( https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/dea-recording-am... ) actors.

Can you comment on the scale of VIN reader deployments? They're harder to read because of the smaller size, but I'd guess they're less likely to be intentionally altered or obscured.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#95

Post by CrazyCatDog »

nerdponx wrote: post #78

The fact that private malls are even tracking license plates to begin with is disturbing. Obvious in hindsight, but disturbing.

In Santa Monica, the system helps you find your car if you don’t remember where you parked. Call me southern Californian, but it helps.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#96

Post by lord_ring_111 »

ryanmercer wrote: post #59
Skunkleton wrote: post #13

To me the issue here is that this data is collected in the first place. It seems wrong to me that private corporations are tracking my every move.

Then don't go on to their private property to conduct business?

Good point. Hole up in a cave. Living in a society is a trade off. You give up certain freedoms to gain certain other previleges. You give up right to kill people (whih was pretty common when people were normadic) for greater collective security. I dont see ice as anything different. They are enforcing the laws of society. If you dont like it, vote to change the laws.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#97

Post by toomuchtodo »

jumby wrote: post #14
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also settle for some California legislation that would kill Vigilant’s business model.

More than this? https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

That’s actually pretty solid. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#99

Post by Spooky23 »

k_harper wrote: post #94
Spooky23 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that most people would be surprised at the scale of LPR deployments by both private ( http://drnrecovery.com/2016-trends-lpr-affiliates/ ) and public sector ( https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/dea-recording-am... ) actors.

Can you comment on the scale of VIN reader deployments? They're harder to read because of the smaller size, but I'd guess they're less likely to be intentionally altered or obscured.

I cannot.

I imagine that would require much better cameras and cost more. On my car the tamper prevention measures make it hard to read from many angles as well.

I think the solution for the use case you describe is coming in 2020, where cars will be able to talk to each other and to road sensors. That technology will probably be used to collect mileage taxes and demand pricing as cars shift to electric, so identity will eventually be a component.

Re: A California mall operator is sharing license plate tracking data with ICE

#100

Post by User23 »

GVIrish wrote: post #79
User23 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure if you’re drunk in public with your kids and get arrested you will in fact be forcibly separated. Also this is a great example of static thinking, because it completely ignores dynamic effects. Ban family separation, how humane! Second order effect: incentivize bringing children when committing crimes. A sane and compassionate, as well as moral and just, society doesn’t want to encourage bring your kids t…

> Pretty sure if you’re drunk in public with your kids and get arrested you will in fact be forcibly separated. For a misdemeanor the police are absolutely not going to take someone's children and ship them to detention centers in other states with no clear way of getting them back or even getting in touch with them. Most of the time a misdemeanor means showing up to court and paying a fine. > Also this is a great ex…

If it doesn’t make sense then, at risk of being too frank, you aren’t actually thinking about higher order effects. In an otherwise intelligent person, which you clearly are, this indicates emotion is dominating reasoning. I get it, pedophrasty* is extremely effective rhetoric.

Domestic criminals who get arrested for a misdemeanor while having their children along don’t get to bring them to jail or get immediately released on their own recognizance. And yes there are plenty of arrestible misdemeanors.

*https://medium.com/incerto/pedophrasty-bigoteering-and-other...

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