Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#31

Post by krapp » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:19 AM UTC

product50 wrote: post #13

Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP? Their other homegrown products such as WeChat and Xiaomi seem pretty competitive and very catered to the local market. This is just giving such a bad name to the country and supporting Trump's broad claims that China thrives on IP theft.

>Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP?

They can, but why should they when the world will innovate for them? They have nuclear weapons and most of the world's manufacturing base already, they do it because can get away with it.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#32

Post by tlear » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:20 AM UTC

sjroot wrote: post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

Do you not know all cultures are same? To Re-education camp with you.

Being a TA for undergrad courses this pattern is very common. Other group that consistently gets caught was guys from ME. East Europeans cheat but they almost always put enough effort to make it hard to catch.

Thing is that universities do not prosecute this at all. I have seen people graduate who I think never submitted their own assignment at all.

Additional thing is that “community” usually has all the tests for last 10 years and profs don’t change them that much. So they memorize the whole thing which is enough to get passing grade.

There was one Math prof that I adored who would put clever traps into his tests. Every single time he would catch people.. and they would not learn. Still graduated.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#33

Post by sjroot » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:21 AM UTC

biocomputation wrote: post #23

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny how afraid people are about tiptoeing around this issue. Cheating among chinese students is widespread and blatant, and they do not even pretend to care. They are completely shameless about it. Everyone with Chinese students knows it, but it’s politically incorrect to call it out. Which they are also aware of, and take advantage of.

People who can, do, and people who can't, cheat. It's the way of the world, and not isolated to any particular ethic group, social class, or otherwise.

That might be true, but I think it is occurring disproportionally amongst Chinese students (and perhaps as a result, Chinese engineers).

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#34

Post by brian-armstrong » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:22 AM UTC

sjroot wrote: post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

Bunnie Huang covers this in his (really excellent) book on manufacturing in Shenzhen. It sounds like it just comes down to a difference in cultural beliefs on intellectual property. Of course, reading HN, you get the idea maybe it isn't such a different perspective from (parts of) the West's.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#35

Post by saluki » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:23 AM UTC

sjroot wrote: post #17

Shank wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would venture to say that there is a cultural disconnect with the Chinese when it comes to the idea of intellectual property. I would much more strongly link it to the fact that academic success and workplace success leads to high economic again and societal standing. This is fostered at an early age and progresses all throughout life. The gaokao [0] is a striking example of just how much pressure goes into acade…

I agree that’s a huge part of it that I left out. I guess I threw that in the bin of “cultural differences.”

One of my friends at university had a Chinese student copy off him during an exam without my friend's knowledge.

When they received their graded exams back the cheating student came up to my friend yelling at him for making him miss points due to the answers he copied from my friend being incorrect.

Of course we embellished the story over the years where the guy was yelling all kinds of things and about how he ruined his life, etc.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#36

Post by taurath » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:24 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #26

product50 wrote: post #13

Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP? Their other homegrown products such as WeChat and Xiaomi seem pretty competitive and very catered to the local market. This is just giving such a bad name to the country and supporting Trump's broad claims that China thrives on IP theft.

They're in a hurry. Culturally today they believe in a sort of global manifest destiny for the near future of their nation. They believe they're destined to be the dominant power. It's dramatically faster and cheaper to steal than to invest decades and countless billions of dollars doing it the hard way. The only way China can fully stand toe to toe with the US in the next two decades or so, is to aggressively plunde…

> They're in a hurry. Culturally today they believe in a sort of global manifest destiny for the near future of their nation. They believe they're destined to be the dominant power.

I'd argue they're probably right, barring some massive financial crisis.

There are more middle class people in china than there are in total in the US - they're buying cars, taking vacations, and generally being a huge driver of consumer goods throughout the world. I don't see the US keeping up except at being 1. already rich, and 2. generally home to new innovations. We'll be the R&D lab of the world, but we won't be the primary economic driver.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#37

Post by whooshee » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:26 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #18

sjroot wrote: post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

It’s funny how afraid people are about tiptoeing around this issue. Cheating among chinese students is widespread and blatant, and they do not even pretend to care. They are completely shameless about it. Everyone with Chinese students knows it, but it’s politically incorrect to call it out. Which they are also aware of, and take advantage of.

People are not afraid to calling out cheating. Yes, there are Chinese students do that. People are just not that into overgeneralize a giant group of people.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#38

Post by kasey_junk » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:28 AM UTC

tlear wrote: post #32

sjroot wrote: post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

Do you not know all cultures are same? To Re-education camp with you. Being a TA for undergrad courses this pattern is very common. Other group that consistently gets caught was guys from ME. East Europeans cheat but they almost always put enough effort to make it hard to catch. Thing is that universities do not prosecute this at all. I have seen people graduate who I think never submitted their own assignment at all…

When I TA’d many years ago you could graph the frat brothers by their test/assignment answers.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#39

Post by ghettoimp » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:35 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #18

sjroot wrote: post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

It’s funny how afraid people are about tiptoeing around this issue. Cheating among chinese students is widespread and blatant, and they do not even pretend to care. They are completely shameless about it. Everyone with Chinese students knows it, but it’s politically incorrect to call it out. Which they are also aware of, and take advantage of.

FWIW.

In my undergrad days, long ago now, cheating was rampant throughout the (overwhelmingly white and male) CS student body.

One professor, whom I admired, got fed up with this. He handed back a particular assignment to his class, ungraded, with the code of conduct stapled to each student's submission. He then pointedly told the class that if anyone needed to come and tell him anything after class, he would be in his office. This move was the talk of the dorms for weeks.

But nothing really came of it. This stern warning no doubt caused some fear and anguish among those affected, but that was the extent of it. Nobody got expelled, flunked the course, or had their record damaged in any way.

This is just an anecdote. I certainly don't have any data on the prevalence of cheating, or on differences in attitudes toward cheating, among Chinese versus other students. But I'd be surprised if there is a measurable difference. In my experience, everyone is completely shameless and nobody faces any real consequences even when they are caught red-handed.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#40

Post by FLUX-YOU » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

Theodores wrote: post #30

I do not wish to question the veracity of this story, however it plays into a narrative where the West is advanced and China is merely stealing I.P. from hard working folks in the West. I fear that one day we will wake up and realise that we are behind, to discover that our friends in China have been innovating. We have had this already with internet infrastructure. Whilst half of the USA and rural UK struggle along…

>I fear that one day we will wake up and realise that we are behind, to discover that our friends in China have been innovating.

As much as we'd all like if every country to got along with one another, if we find ourselves in that position I'm sure the intel agencies will get it in gear.

Maybe the war on terror has to die before we really turn and see the threat that China poses.