Live data from Hacker News

Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

bloomberg.com

21–30 of 127 posts

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#22

I’m sad at myself for feeling “well yeah not unexpected” after having worked at DENSO HQ (Toyota group supplier) where a Chinese natiuonal engineer stole 30,000 design documents in the early 2000s (it made national headlines when it happened). Because it’s only 1/1000000 people that do this that will cause prejudice and disdain for all the good actors.

>good actors >People doing their job and not committing international espionage Those are just people, let's not lower our standards

[deleted]

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#23
post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

It’s funny how afraid people are about tiptoeing around this issue. Cheating among chinese students is widespread and blatant, and they do not even pretend to care. They are completely shameless about it. Everyone with Chinese students knows it, but it’s politically incorrect to call it out. Which they are also aware of, and take advantage of.

People who can, do, and people who can't, cheat. It's the way of the world, and not isolated to any particular ethic group, social class, or otherwise.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#24
post #20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why intellectual property? Intellectual property is not the basis of academic integrity rules.

The stealing of ideas can be applied to legal intellectual property or academic assignments.

Not really. People don't get tossed out of school for plagiarism because they're violating someone's copyright. In fact, you don't need the notion of intellectual property at all to have the independent notion of academic integrity - one is significantly older than the other.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#25
post #15
post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

I was in graduate school about 25 years ago and several Chinese students got caught cheating on the compiler project. I always thought this was a bit strange because I’m sure most software developers could transform a piece of source code so that it would not appear to be a copy.

> cheating on the compiler project ... transform a piece of source code so that it would not appear to be a copy

Sounds like the cheat itself would make a decent project for the compiler class.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#26

Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP? Their other homegrown products such as WeChat and Xiaomi seem pretty competitive and very catered to the local market. This is just giving such a bad name to the country and supporting Trump's broad claims that China thrives on IP theft.

They're in a hurry. Culturally today they believe in a sort of global manifest destiny for the near future of their nation. They believe they're destined to be the dominant power.

It's dramatically faster and cheaper to steal than to invest decades and countless billions of dollars doing it the hard way.

The only way China can fully stand toe to toe with the US in the next two decades or so, is to aggressively plunder beneficial IP wherever they can. There has been no serious consequence for them doing so the past 30 years of their rise. It's not below their dignity, because the mission overrules all. They'll continue doing it until the cost is too high; their calculation is probably that by that point they will already be fully self-sustaining as a superpower. At that point they'll show you the door if you have a problem with it (or worse).

China very carefully plays by the hide your power and bide your time strategy. Xi recently admonished state media about bragging too heavily; that's all about playing down their strength. China's ideal is to play it down until they're strong enough so as to be beyond a reasonable challenge by other powers (at least in their sphere of influence, Asia broadly).

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#27

Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP? Their other homegrown products such as WeChat and Xiaomi seem pretty competitive and very catered to the local market. This is just giving such a bad name to the country and supporting Trump's broad claims that China thrives on IP theft.

In fairness, there isn’t a great record in the US for respecting self driving IP.

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#28

Can China not innovate at all? Why are they so keen on stealing IP? Their other homegrown products such as WeChat and Xiaomi seem pretty competitive and very catered to the local market. This is just giving such a bad name to the country and supporting Trump's broad claims that China thrives on IP theft.

Innovation is expensive. The costs you don’t see are all of the failed designs and revisions that don’t go out the door, which you need large investment or another side of your business to subsidize until you can productize. It’s also risky, as there is a chance that you won’t ever find something that is a hit.

Why do all that when you can skip to printing money by knocking off something that already sells?

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#29
post #11

Disclaimer: I am speaking from personal experiences and know that, despite these experiences, there are tons of Chinese engineers who work their ass off and maintain great professional integrity. That said...my experience with Chinese graduate students has been incredibly disappointing. While they made up the majority of our graduate computer science program, most had no respect for academic conduct guidelines. I exp…

I can speak to both my own personal experience and anecdotal info, in that I've personally only worked with Chinese engineers who are of the utmost scruples and integrity (even when I don't always agree with their choices from an engineering perspective), but it does seem to be that there is some cultural traction against the kind of mindset we appreciate in the West.

But I tend to view it in the context of Feynman's remarks about Brazilians (who I've also had the pleasure of working with and being enlightened by) [0].

Even if there is some cultural resistance, there will always be exceptions, depending how you choose to select from that data. Personally, I value those traits that choose certain value over others. Being right (with the qualification of being right, rather than appearing right) is essential for a good engineer.

I don't think any country has a monopoly on good engineers or on bad. The best we can do is engage these like minds and cultivate a shared appreciation of the Good.

I think politics (from the education level up) makes it hard to question the cultural norm, I find there are plenty of folks who hold "correctness" a higher value than compliance.

All this said as a white guy looking in and lucky enough to have found aligned mentalities among the folks I've worked with.

[0] http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Re: Ex-Apple Employee Stole Secrets for Chinese Firm, U.S. Says

#30
I do not wish to question the veracity of this story, however it plays into a narrative where the West is advanced and China is merely stealing I.P. from hard working folks in the West.

I fear that one day we will wake up and realise that we are behind, to discover that our friends in China have been innovating.

We have had this already with internet infrastructure. Whilst half of the USA and rural UK struggle along with internet served over fifty year old copper cables, in Eastern Europe, after the fall of the wall, countries such as Estonia were able to leapfrog typical Western infrastructure and lay fibre to the door for everyone. They might not have done so with Estonian made Cisco routers, however having this leapfrogged infrastructure in place fostered an environment of innovation - Skype being from Estonia.

In automotive there is a real risk for Western auto companies that they will not be able to compete with the electric cars that will be coming out of China. Chinese electric cars could be cosy and a really nice space to be in during one's commute, like an extension of one's living room and a good place to get work done. Meanwhile Western alternatives might still be trying to be yesteryear's status symbols, e.g. 'sporty' cars where the fake exhaust note, theoretical time around the Nurburgring and whatever else excites geriatric Top Gear presenters 'matters'.

A new generation of Western consumer might not want these 'dad cars' and just might prefer whatever comes out of China. There may be cheap plastics in these cars, they may not even have self-driving, but the sum of the parts, price and reliability might trump Western alternatives. We have had this before with VW and Japanese compact cars gouging out the U.S. Big Three. There was no rocket science in the VW Beetle but it was a better buy than what Detroit was offering at the time. Putting up tariffs and complaining about the Japanese merely copying didn't really help.

Post reply on HN