Dang! If only having a good learning and work ethic wasn't so hard!
How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
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Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#32[deleted]
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#33Social classes existed before; when revolutions occurred, the composition of each class and the composition of society into classes change.
Just like there are almost 50% of women in a society, the bottom social class (in terms of power, money, etc) is huge. So, whatever mobility one perceives is in the bottom class: moving from $15 hour security guard job to $150K jr dev job.
People from non-American countries recognize this. However, in America, the bottom class since WWII till late 1970's, had a nice job, pension, a home, two cars, with one spouse working; this created the illusion of 'class less' society in America.
When one says that there is no mobility, we are comparing the life of today with that of post-WW2 middle class era.
Even if we look at John Rawls, his difference principle does not eradicate classes. Basically, that principle in one version is same as "a rising tide lifting all boats"; in another version, it is fair to lift some poor boats higher than other boats, even at the expense of the latter.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your views exemplify selfish priorities and an uncaring worldview. If you care about others, let it be reflected in your behavior and people (like me) will stop doubting you. Is your issue with government in the abstract or your government? If the latter, the caring solution is to change the government through voting, vocalizing and organizing. Governments are instituted to maintain a level of civility in a society.…
> you don’t care about people in poverty. If you can’t find the decency to be honest about that, then you’ve got even bigger problems. I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty. > UBI prioritizes your economy, not your neighbors in poverty Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today. To use your own wor…
>I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty.
It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself. This is not caring.
>Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today
The contradictions and other problems really are too long to list here but it shouldn’t be necessary. For someone so concerned with wasting money, advocating UBI over direct commodity distribution is about as hypocritical as it gets.
The only difference is an additional and purely self-serving dependency on market values, which are drastically unstable across time, geography and, social structures. So, while your claim is of course untested, your proposal only further establishes that once it is instatiated, the results will be ever-changing and your claim therefor unknowable.
You might do best to just state why* you would prefer UBI over direct commodity distribution.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you don’t care about people in poverty. If you can’t find the decency to be honest about that, then you’ve got even bigger problems. I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty. > UBI prioritizes your economy, not your neighbors in poverty Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today. To use your own wor…
>I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty. It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself. This is not caring. >Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today The contradictions and other problems really are too long to list here but it shouldn…
> It appears too low to effectively help them except in the case that the same effort might also help yourself.
UBI would absolutely not help me or my family in aggregate. We would be net donors to that program, likely by a factor of more than 20. I support it not because it's good for me, but because it seems the best way to ensure a minimalist safety net for all members of the society.
> This is not caring.
I understand your opinion.
> You might do best to just state why you would prefer UBI over direct commodity distribution.
I believe that individuals know better how to and will do a better job in allocating cash than any other agent, governmental or not, would know how to allocate commodities to them. I like this cheese, or that bread. I don’t like crunchy peanut butter. I’d rather live on the East side of the city. I’d rather live with roommates and have more free cash; someone else might want to spend more to live alone. Lots of choices to be made to optimize for limited resources.
I don't want a new governmental agency (likely with the usability of the DMV) deciding where poor people live, what they are given to eat, and what clothes they are given to wear.
Money is trivially easy to distribute without creating any parallel logistics operations to buy, store, inventory, move, and distribute physical goods. We already have market-based distribution mechanisms for all of those things.
Give them cash and let them use their agency to decide how to spend it. They'll do a much better job of it than we would on their behalf.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#36This is an odd use of of the term caste. Or even class. Both of these imply low or no mobility within social hierarchies. But I don’t think this is the case. “An Outer Party member could reach the Inner Party by chancing into an early job at a lottery-ticket company (such as Facebook or Google) or by becoming a successful entrepreneur. But that’s rare; most of the Outer Party prefers working for the Inner Party, grad…
The traditional American dream is that you change your status through making friends and simple hard work. If you're the hardest working and most dedicated Walmart sales associate, you'll quickly become a manager, and you can iterate on that at least until you're a regional director or something. From that perspective, it's weird to look in on a typical Silicon Valley company, where it's understood that only people w…
I’ve worked exclusively in tech for the past 30 years for 10 orgs or so. I learned new skills through formal and informal training. Not your Walmart example but I both progressed organically and joined company teams. Nowhere was there a static tech team without mobility. Maybe I’m just lucky but even giant banks and Gov orgs had career ladders.
If anything this is less of an issue in tech than other industries.
Tech knowledge isn’t innate, no one is born with it. So it’s good that decisions are made with people who have specific tech knowledge. It’s also good that tech knowledge is one of the most democratic, accessible, and learnable knowledges out there. I know dozens of high level tech leaders who have no degree at all, a couple with no high school diploma and one who dropped out of middle school.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#37This is an odd use of of the term caste. Or even class. Both of these imply low or no mobility within social hierarchies. But I don’t think this is the case. “An Outer Party member could reach the Inner Party by chancing into an early job at a lottery-ticket company (such as Facebook or Google) or by becoming a successful entrepreneur. But that’s rare; most of the Outer Party prefers working for the Inner Party, grad…
> “An Outer Party member could reach the Inner Party by chancing into an early job at a lottery-ticket company (such as Facebook or Google) or by becoming a successful entrepreneur. But that’s rare; most of the Outer Party prefers working for the Inner Party, gradually accumulating equity through stock grants and appreciating real estate.” -If you look at the bios of VC “inner party” people, very few were born VC. Ma…
But of course that’s true. It’s also inconsequntial that most people in the outer party will not join the inner party (or that it’s rare for a US citizen to become President).
That’s perfectly fine as there are way more engineers than VCs. This is only a problem when there is low mobility, like on caste systems.
While it’s impossible for someone to change castes and they are born into it, it is possible for mobility between engineer and VC.
Thus my complaint that the author’s piece isn’t logically sound as a mobile system with inequality isn’t a problem as long as there is efficiency and low barriers to access.
Inequality isn’t bad inherently. It’s bad when corrupt. For example, it’s not bad that 1 out of 1M wins the lotto and now has way more. It’s bad if the lotto is rigged.
But I suppose if the author believes that it’s bad that not everyone gets a trophy, then that should be a different argument. And a different piece. And not incorrectly refer to castes.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#38This is an odd use of of the term caste. Or even class. Both of these imply low or no mobility within social hierarchies. But I don’t think this is the case. “An Outer Party member could reach the Inner Party by chancing into an early job at a lottery-ticket company (such as Facebook or Google) or by becoming a successful entrepreneur. But that’s rare; most of the Outer Party prefers working for the Inner Party, grad…
That's a decent point. I want to be clear that I'm open to the thesis here, that the class system in Silicon Valley has caste like elements to it. However, this particular article doesn't investigate this thesis. Instead it appears, at least in part, to be grabbing the emotional impact of a "caste" system while discussing what is a class system.
Right, I agree with this. There are certainly classes in the sense that some people make $250k and there are certainly homeless people and baristas.
And there may be some inequities and inefficiencies in the merit of people at classes. But my experience (and the data in general) shows that there is low inequality and my personal experience shows more mobility that other professions that require a lot more certification and training.
I believe if you’re a great programmer, you can make a great product, and make lots of money and stay in the outer party or join the inner party. Or, even better, not recognize these artificial classifications and do whatever you want.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your views exemplify selfish priorities and an uncaring worldview. If you care about others, let it be reflected in your behavior and people (like me) will stop doubting you. Is your issue with government in the abstract or your government? If the latter, the caring solution is to change the government through voting, vocalizing and organizing. Governments are instituted to maintain a level of civility in a society.…
What you call the "whims and woes of the market" others would call market efficiency. Being a government employee myself, and dealing with multiple state and federal government programs in my personal life including my mortgage, I am fully on board with allowing the market to better serve the needs of people making their own decisions with cash in hand funded collectively by every citizen of this country. Which, by t…
>I have a positive, but finite, amount that I care about people in poverty.
UBI is another attempt to save an economic system which works for you but incentivizes maintaining a class of desperate and powerless citizens. Each of these ill-fated attempts punishes another slew of innocent generations of poverty-ridden lives, in the name of ignoring the root issue of misaligned incentives. How many chances do you believe the ruling class to deserve?
The issue may not be the amount that you care but that your caring evidently depends on what you get out of it. That’s not caring. Try again.
>Giving people in poverty a sustenance level of amount money per month seems it prioritizes neighbors in poverty more than today.
The contradictions and other problems really are too long to list here but it shouldn’t be necessary. For someone so concerned with wasting money, advocating UBI over direct commodity distribution is about as hypocritical as it gets.
The only difference is an additional and purely self-serving dependency on market values, which are drastically unstable across time, geography and, social structures. So, while your claim is of course untested, your proposal only further establishes that, once implemented, the results will be ever-changing and therefor unknowable.
You might do best to just state why you would prefer UBI over direct commodity distribution.
Re: How Silicon Valley Fuels an Informal Caste System
#40I used to be an Instacart Shopper and I'm currently taking a web development bootcamp in Manhattan and now I'm on track to make more money than my parents ever did, which is a win in my book. I will do everything I can to make it the next step to the "Inner Party", but what if I don't? Does that mean I "lost at life" if I only end up Upper Middle Class? This author is trying to push a neo-marxist victim ideology onto…
Maybe Wired knows that and all they are doing is trying to create discord in order to have more engagement and drive more views.
You make a good point. I am trying to explain old wired vs. new wired. Old wired was really trying to do something- connect people, unleash potential, whatever something they gave a damn. New wired is trying to sell more to the dwindling audience created by old wired.
They may be just as smart, but wired’s old dumb stories (“The Future is Push”) were at least earnest.