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Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

nytimes.com

51–60 of 223 posts

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#51
post #7

These tracking systems are being combined with China's "social credit score". You think Transunion, Experian and Equifax are creepy and wrong? Spend ten minutes researching this: https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=chi... Cameras with facial recognition are the tip of the iceberg. Through sufficiently strong government legal control, metadata such as mobile phone GPS and tower data can be correla…

Sounds like Google Facebook and Amazon

> Sounds like Google Facebook and Amazon

Except Google, Facebook, and Amazon don't control your right to travel, can't use violence against you, can't seize your assets, don't have armies, and aren't states.

(edit for missing word and apostrophe)

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#52

The article says there are four times as many cameras in China than in the US. This means approximately the same number of cameras per citizen. Where is the NYT article about the US' dystopian dreams?

Disclaimer: I don’t consider myself prochinese government, if you think the below statements state otherwise, don’t call me a 50cents party. There are freedom in expressing ones thoughts on solid facts. It’s an insult to people’s rights by labeling them and automatically disregard their opinions.

I think our collective consciousness should be to show the world that a free and open nation is the best form of national structure.

It should not be that someone is doing something not free and open, and then all statements are pinned to say those are bad. That does not help the cause of convincing others to do the good.

I think the sin is on both sides:

The western nations seemingly enjoying freedom and openness should understand why there is a tendency to move to police state. Not to label everything as the givernment is run by evils communists, or some other easy reasoning that deliberately frame the problem outside of its inherent complexity.

The people inside, however, should do the same, understand why people outside are worried about the direction they are heading to.

I totally get the point that this article falls victim of the first sin, where they automatically label what China is doing as bad, and use a title that obviously state that mental judgement.

And what you are saying actually is more correct to identify that what happening in USA is not showing free and open nation is the best national political structure.

But in the end, this probably will be treated as another piece of nonsensical rambling, might even get downvoted.

I have lost faith in mankind’s long term viability on earth for quite some time. And that’s why I fully support Elon and Bezoss endeavor. Not that they are kind or trustworthy human being, but I agree with them, and I believe space is the only space to help humans not explode on this planet.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#54
post #5

The technology isn't quite there, and Chinese law enforcement clearly exaggerates in order to maximize the current impact. However, we are very close to the point where everything could be tracked, and recorded in a usable way - including the exact location of most citizens at all times, discrepancies in utility bills, shopping, internet activity (except possibly for those few with impeccable OpSec, and even that for…

How hard is it to destroy things? If people wanted to they could start breaking shit and then there would be no cameras watching them.

Can you manufacture devices faster than people can break them? I think some sort of mass uprising could still work.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#55
post #47
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good question. I think the answer is "yes" with proviso that it would most likely come from the top. The CCP, is not exactly a monolith. It has factions, some get suppressed, some come to prominence. One that saw the negative aspects as being too negative would have to come to prominence to undo the overreach.

I think you are wrong. It will be hard to roll back any system which abolishes violent crime. The people will accept it as long as it not abused that much.

This is a tricky line of thinking. Once surveillance is there you can always hide behind the “now we’re safer”, the issue is that you can always survey more and always claim that going back would be less safe and so on and so forth. A good example for this is airport security. As far as I’m aware it’s quite unclear how effective all the security apparatus is yet it piled up over the years since 9/11, full body scans are now the norm etc. The question left to ask is: when is it too much? How much intrusion are we ready to bear for how much marginal safety gains?

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#56
India has almost the same population as China, and yet they don't choose to wield an authoritative system of population control and management with all the psychological techniques of manipulation and deception that China is.

So how is India doing - worse than China? Every country is different so can't really be compared like that, but I am fascinated to see whether Chinese people will come to rise up against such an abusive government and somehow play psychological hardball in the same way, or whether the oppression will just tire them out because ecosystems of old biology just can't compete with the new ecosystems of machines and AI that that government is increasingly using.

If I were writing a Sci-fi novel I'd have the AI (at the moment of singularity) take over the selfish pig government and become the new ruler over ALL the humans (making them equal but under it), in a delicious moment of irony.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#57
post #25
post #5

The technology isn't quite there, and Chinese law enforcement clearly exaggerates in order to maximize the current impact. However, we are very close to the point where everything could be tracked, and recorded in a usable way - including the exact location of most citizens at all times, discrepancies in utility bills, shopping, internet activity (except possibly for those few with impeccable OpSec, and even that for…

> Dissidents and revolutionaries would hardly be able to do much. Hence the scary question: Once the technology is available (now) and complete surveillance is implemented (soon), is there a going back?

I don't think so. There's no going back to the world that existed before nuclear weapons. Similarly, AI and surveillance tool advances are too useful and efficient for maintaining order, and there won't be going back to the world before them. They fundamentally change the way that law enforcement interacts with citizens at a high level.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#58

India has almost the same population as China, and yet they don't choose to wield an authoritative system of population control and management with all the psychological techniques of manipulation and deception that China is. So how is India doing - worse than China? Every country is different so can't really be compared like that, but I am fascinated to see whether Chinese people will come to rise up against such an…

You omit the possibility of a third outcome, where the Chinese people do not rise up and the oppression does not tire them out.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#59

India has almost the same population as China, and yet they don't choose to wield an authoritative system of population control and management with all the psychological techniques of manipulation and deception that China is. So how is India doing - worse than China? Every country is different so can't really be compared like that, but I am fascinated to see whether Chinese people will come to rise up against such an…

Democracy is not as efficient at getting things done as a well oiled top down organization. That's why the military and private companies aren't democracies.

Re: Inside China’s Dystopian Dreams: A.I., Shame and Lots of Cameras

#60
post #9

This article examines A.I., policing and authoritarianism from a Western perspective, rather than the local perspective. I think it would have served the article's balance to get a more local and relativist view on the intersectionality of the things they are looking to be objective about. That said, if the technology delivers on the potential the gov't claims, I think they will have to relax the laws or make it flex…

you want local perspective? this is what happens when it's implemented against a religious and ethnic minority: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/02/asia/china-xinjiang-detention... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/travel-0327201816200... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/opinion/sunday/china-surv... https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/05/31/china-has-turn...

Xinjiang is like Afghanistan, its not a police state, its a war zone.

You should not only pity the minority, the Han people are equally forced there because the government needs maintain control.

These articles, do care about the people, but not all of them.

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