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Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

utahpolicy.com

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Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#161

Post by aaronbrethorst »

sharpercoder wrote: post #81
propman wrote: post #21

Paper ballots, no machines and especially no machines connected to the internet...if we were able to get that crazy bug into Iranian nuclear reactors without direct transfer from Internet, then you can bet North Korea, Russia, Israel, and China will pour billions to do the same thing. Voting ID cards too, though I admit I don’t know enough about that. Even if it costs billions to get it done, confidence in fair and f…

Sorry to say this, but the US has bigger systemic problems to fix. Voting is a small one compared to the 2-party system. The US always boasts about how it is so democratic; while in reality there isn't much democracy. In fact, the 2-party system looks suspiciously a lot on the 1-party system in existence in many other countries. Sure, you have a choice, but what value is that choice?

> Voting is a small one compared to the 2-party system

How exactly do you propose fixing a two party system without voting? The United States's first past the post voting system pretty much guarantees a two party system[1]. If you want to see a move to ranked choice voting or another system that would encourage third parties, then vote for candidates who are in favor of passing RCV laws and vote for ballot initiatives to pass RCV laws.

> Sure, you have a choice, but what value is that choice?

Clean air, clean water, a person's right to self-determination over what happens with their body, equal pay for equal work...I could go on for a while, but I don't think you're looking to be swayed.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#162

Post by maxerickson »

MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #154
jadedhacker wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let them. There should be citizenship for anyone living or working in this country for six months regardless of how they get here. To do otherwise is to exploit people and subject them to man's inhumanity to man as we are seeing with recent administration policies. That and the precarity and exploitation foisted upon undocumented workers by US corporations using the threat of state violence while crowds call for bloo…

Bad idea. A steady trickle of immigrants is much better because then it forces cultural integration, especially when the immigrants do not speak English. A flood of immigrants will lead to a nation divided among cultural lines without the possibility of integration because the cultural bubbles will have already been established. We should focus on helping impoverished nations develop, so people don't have to leave fr…

But kill NAFTA.

In the US there's really not any community of non-English speaking citizens, so whatever to your complaints about integration, the kids desperately want to integrate (and the parents usually agree).

And of course the whole thing where foreigners are scary is as much a modern panic as anything. In periods of pretty open immigration, lots of states didn't require citizenship to vote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in...

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#163

Post by Terr_ »

hueving wrote: post #134
erentz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. The hysteria around double or fraudulent voting is crazy. You’d need thousands of people doing it in most districts to have any impact, and that would get obvious really bloody quickly. I think this is a pretty good example of what I find to be the typical of an American practice of cutting off their own nose to spite their face. [1] Americans absolutely hate the idea of freeloaders or someone getting somethin…

Double-voting is only one thing people are paranoid about. The other is the 12 million possible votes from undocumented (a.k.a illegal) immigrants.

"Paranoid" being the operative word, since illegal immigrants -- who don't want surprise government attention -- are even less likely than everybody else to commit voter fraud. For them, it's a stupid and unnecessary risk for no tangible reward.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#164

Post by Terr_ »

mikejholly wrote: post #86
rectang wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

You also need to wear clothes and shoes into the polling station. Are those expenses considered poll taxes as well? Straw man, but requiring ID is not really a direct poll tax. I certainly don't feel like I'm being unreasonably taxed when I vote with my ID.

Well, your average clothes-or-shoes store isn't sited, controlled, and operated by a partisan political party trying to actively sabotage certain groups to prevent them from voting.

The problem is on the ID-provisioning side.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#165

Post by tasty_freeze »

propman wrote: post #21

Paper ballots, no machines and especially no machines connected to the internet...if we were able to get that crazy bug into Iranian nuclear reactors without direct transfer from Internet, then you can bet North Korea, Russia, Israel, and China will pour billions to do the same thing. Voting ID cards too, though I admit I don’t know enough about that. Even if it costs billions to get it done, confidence in fair and f…

You need to distinguish between two very different things. In vote result manipulation, a single actor can modify votes wholesale. In voter fraud, an individual who shouldn't vote does, or pretends to be other people and votes multiple times.

The risk of the former is huge and hard to detect. The latter, despite claims the contrary from certain news outlets and Presidents, is actually extraordinarily rare.

Voter ID cards are claimed to address the second issue, even though they actually alienate far more legitimate voter than fraudulent votes.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#166

Post by iamnotlarry »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #142
rectang wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

If a person doesn't have a car, unless they live in a big city, they are likely to be poor. IF they are poor, they are on government assistance, right? So what ID do they use to get that assistance? That someone might have to pay $15-30 every 5 years to renew a state ID, and have it be claimed that it is a "poll tax" to vote, is ridiculous.

I live in a small U.S. town. There are not 10K people living within 25 miles of my house. While few here would admit to being rich, people who don't live here might see them as pretty well off. There is probably something close to 1 car per capita. That includes infants. If you throw in motorcycles, four-wheelers, tractors, loaders, golf carts, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, personal fork-lifts, etc. we have to go well above 1 vehicle per capita.

Still, there are many functioning people here who do not own a single vehicle.

That doesn't make them poor or stupid or government-dependent.

Your ignorance and prejudice are undermining your ability to mount a convincing argument. I happen to think that a voter ID is not an unacceptable idea. But I run across so many people who seem to mount the kinds of uninformed arguments that you have here. These arguments scare me. They make me worry about the capacity of our society to enact a reasonable voter ID program. It seems like it should be so simple. Then I read the thinking of people like you and worry that it will be botched.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#167

Post by lotu »

squirrelicus wrote: post #94
rectang wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don…

I federal id card is a political non-starter in the US because of a a bunch of reasons. First the federal government currently lacks infrastructure to issue IDs effectively. The states handle drivers licenses at DMV which handle a lot of stuff besides just issuing IDs, building separate federal systems would be a large undertaking.

The REAL ID act which was an attempt to create a federal ID managed by the states was passed in 2005 by is still not implemented because many states simply refuse to comply with the law some have even passed laws that prevent the state from complying with the law. The federal government lacks a way to force a majority of the sates to comply with it's will (see marijuana laws). And states don't want a federal id.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#168

Post by patrickg_zill »

iamnotlarry wrote: post #166
patrickg_zill wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person doesn't have a car, unless they live in a big city, they are likely to be poor. IF they are poor, they are on government assistance, right? So what ID do they use to get that assistance? That someone might have to pay $15-30 every 5 years to renew a state ID, and have it be claimed that it is a "poll tax" to vote, is ridiculous.

I live in a small U.S. town. There are not 10K people living within 25 miles of my house. While few here would admit to being rich, people who don't live here might see them as pretty well off. There is probably something close to 1 car per capita. That includes infants. If you throw in motorcycles, four-wheelers, tractors, loaders, golf carts, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, personal fork-lifts, etc. we have to go wel…

I grew up in a town smaller than that. How many adults do not have a driver's license, which is acceptable id for voting?

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#169

Post by oceanghost »

maxerickson wrote: post #162
MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad idea. A steady trickle of immigrants is much better because then it forces cultural integration, especially when the immigrants do not speak English. A flood of immigrants will lead to a nation divided among cultural lines without the possibility of integration because the cultural bubbles will have already been established. We should focus on helping impoverished nations develop, so people don't have to leave fr…

But kill NAFTA. In the US there's really not any community of non-English speaking citizens, so whatever to your complaints about integration, the kids desperately want to integrate (and the parents usually agree). And of course the whole thing where foreigners are scary is as much a modern panic as anything. In periods of pretty open immigration, lots of states didn't require citizenship to vote: https://en.wikipedi…

> In the US there's really not any community of non-English speaking citizens

Source? lol

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