Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#81

Post by sharpercoder » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

propman wrote: post #21

Paper ballots, no machines and especially no machines connected to the internet...if we were able to get that crazy bug into Iranian nuclear reactors without direct transfer from Internet, then you can bet North Korea, Russia, Israel, and China will pour billions to do the same thing. Voting ID cards too, though I admit I don’t know enough about that. Even if it costs billions to get it done, confidence in fair and f…

Sorry to say this, but the US has bigger systemic problems to fix. Voting is a small one compared to the 2-party system. The US always boasts about how it is so democratic; while in reality there isn't much democracy. In fact, the 2-party system looks suspiciously a lot on the 1-party system in existence in many other countries. Sure, you have a choice, but what value is that choice?

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#82

Post by ddingus » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

stretchwithme wrote: post #39

voronoff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works here. Voting fraud is incredibly rare.

How do we know it's incredibly rare? What evidence would we need to know that all persons voting are actually valid voters? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have cases in California of people voting with their dead relatives' ballots. This a lot easier with voting by mail.

Turnout is also much higher. A few dead ballots suck, but the higher turnout renders them moot.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#83

Post by MatrixAlgebra » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

mikejholly wrote: post #68

jadedhacker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is a good idea, but the second is not. Voter ID cards are historically used to make it harder to vote and thus compromise elections. In person fraud is very uncommon, and it would be very difficult for a foreign government to pull off a large scale interference without being detected. After all, we struggle to get people to show up to vote once already! The idea of mass ballot fraud seems difficult to count…

Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy, including Canada. The rest of the world see it as very reasonable to identify yourself at a polling station. It's odd that this is so contentious in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

ID requirements make a tremendous amount of sense. Fear of those laws repressing certain groups should just incentivize watchdogs and protections ensuring that repressive regulations are not passed.

Seriously, just because a good law could be abused does not mean we should avoid enacting such a law. That sort of thinking would seriously restrict our legal system if it was applied in all cases.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#84

Post by oh_sigh » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

s2g wrote: post #73

mikejholly wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy, including Canada. The rest of the world see it as very reasonable to identify yourself at a polling station. It's odd that this is so contentious in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

mostly cause the laws get abused to target mostly democrat voters.

Likewise, Democrats turn a blind eye towards voting id because they benefit from non eligible voterw voting, because they usually vite Democrat. There, I've made my point and provided as much evidence as you have towards your point

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#85

Post by rectang » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

mikejholly wrote: post #68

jadedhacker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is a good idea, but the second is not. Voter ID cards are historically used to make it harder to vote and thus compromise elections. In person fraud is very uncommon, and it would be very difficult for a foreign government to pull off a large scale interference without being detected. After all, we struggle to get people to show up to vote once already! The idea of mass ballot fraud seems difficult to count…

Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy, including Canada. The rest of the world see it as very reasonable to identify yourself at a polling station. It's odd that this is so contentious in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax.

Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#86

Post by mikejholly » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #85

mikejholly wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy, including Canada. The rest of the world see it as very reasonable to identify yourself at a polling station. It's odd that this is so contentious in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

You also need to wear clothes and shoes into the polling station. Are those expenses considered poll taxes as well? Straw man, but requiring ID is not really a direct poll tax. I certainly don't feel like I'm being unreasonably taxed when I vote with my ID.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#87

Post by analog31 » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

propman wrote: post #21

Paper ballots, no machines and especially no machines connected to the internet...if we were able to get that crazy bug into Iranian nuclear reactors without direct transfer from Internet, then you can bet North Korea, Russia, Israel, and China will pour billions to do the same thing. Voting ID cards too, though I admit I don’t know enough about that. Even if it costs billions to get it done, confidence in fair and f…

In my locale, you mark a paper ballot by hand, and it goes into a somewhat antiquated electronic scanner. The scanner is attached to a locked box that stores the ballots. That seems like a reasonable approach.

When I was a kid, I remember going with my mom when she voted. The mechanical voting machine created this roll of paper with everybody's vote marked on it. After the poll closed, they took out the rolls and laid them out down the hallway of the school where the polling occurred. Anybody was welcome to stay and watch while the poll workers checked the tallies.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#88

Post by ttctciyf » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

mikejholly wrote: post #68

jadedhacker wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is a good idea, but the second is not. Voter ID cards are historically used to make it harder to vote and thus compromise elections. In person fraud is very uncommon, and it would be very difficult for a foreign government to pull off a large scale interference without being detected. After all, we struggle to get people to show up to vote once already! The idea of mass ballot fraud seems difficult to count…

Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy, including Canada. The rest of the world see it as very reasonable to identify yourself at a polling station. It's odd that this is so contentious in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

> Voting requires ID in almost every other western democracy

Not in the UK. [1]

> Do I need to take ID to the polling station?

> You do not need to show ID to vote in England, Scotland and Wales. You just need to tell polling staff your name and address. They will then cross your name off the list and give you a ballot paper.

There were trials of a voter id system recently, but it is widely regarded as "a solution in search of a problem" and a way of suppressing the vote of the economically disadvantaged, the natural opponents of the ruling right wing Tory party[2]

1: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/07/how-do-i-vo...

2: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/29/england-vot...

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#89

Post by jadedhacker » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #57

xienze wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voter ID cards are historically used to make it harder to vote Is that the case in the numerous other countries that require voter ID? I find it funny how we always use “but every other country does it!” when talking about things the US should adopt (e.g., the metric system, socialized healthcare), but that’s apparently not a good reason when talking about voter ID. Even countries with far poorer populations than o…

I have no idea why this has become a right vs left, polarized issue.

It's because the right benefits from low turnout. The left, representing the interests of the proletarian majority, benefits from large turnout. The Democratic party, a center left or center right party depending on who you talk to, has co-opted the left voter base and thereby depends on higher turnout during general elections. As a centrist party, they intentionally suppress turnout during primary elections (e.g. by not advertising the date in my community) to restrict ideological choices.

Re: Utah voting system fending off 1B hacking attempts per day

#90

Post by jlmorton » Sat, Jul 07, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

bschilke wrote: post #72

jlmorton wrote: post #16

If there is no online voting, why is the system even connected to the Internet? What exactly are the attacks against? The voter registration site? The election results site?

From what I understand the greatest vulnerability is modification of voter registration data. If you show up to vote and they don't have you in that district's voter rolls because your address was changed to another state, your vote has just been taken away.

If this is the case, it begs the question why voter registration data is directly connected to the Internet. Yes, we want to allow online registrations and modifications, but surely we could have a batch process to make changes to the canonical source, with a signed log of changes.