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Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

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Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're not required to do humanities/liberal arts at US universities?

Outside the USA and its cultural appendages, Canada, South Korea and the like, it is assumed that anyone who goes to university has studied the liberal arts at secondary/high school. Given the low quality of secondary education in the US in the formative period of its third level system this could not be assumed so what would in Europe be considered (grammar school) high school classes and subjects are taught at univ…

You've somehow gotten strange ideas about the programs available at US high schools.

For instance, calculus is pretty widely available even if it isn't a diploma requirement.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I've never had an interview where they asked about my college education. They don’t ask, but many places throw your resume without a bachelors into the trash at the first step in the hiring process. Ask me how I know.

> They don’t ask, but many places throw your resume without a bachelors into the trash at the first step in the hiring process. Ask me how I know. I'm very understanding of this sentiment. I have suggested to people to get around this by simply lying about having a bachelors degree on their resume. If the employer verifies, you're out nothing. If they don't, you have a job you otherwise wouldn't have had. You have to…

I suppose that could work, but you’re still vulnerable at the tech interview, aka test that can’t be studied for, or haven’t encountered in years.

I’ve found the kinds of places that focus on these things tend to coincide.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#33
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adjunct lecturing has terrible working conditions and benefits. It is a hobby, not a job. No one should do it as a job. Anyone who treats it as a job should be dissuaded from doing so as forcefully as possible to prevent further suffering. If you have a spouse with a good job and insurance or a trust fund by all means do it as a hobby, even an especially engrossing one. Anyone who describes themself as an adjunct pro…

> Teaching high school I looked into this in my state. Getting your foot in the door as a teacher in a public school would require someone with a PhD in say, mathematics, physics or computer science, to go back to grad school for a masters in education. Not sure that's an option, and is also ridiculous considering I just spent six years in grad school. You could do TFA as a backdoor, in many states, but that is proba…

I’m not saying it’s a good deal for anyone capable of getting a doctorate. It’s clearly superior to being an adjunct though. They’re low paid, insecure, highly qualified labour. Once you have a doctorate and you have two years on the job market without a tenure track job you’re done. You’re never getting a tenure track job and you’re better off getting the he’ll out. There are some exceptions but assuming you’ll beat the odds is a losing bet. Even those two years of adjuncting, doing teaching and research and hoping is a losing bet but it’s not an insane, fallacious waste. Sometimes people make it out. For all practical purposes no one makes it to tenured Professor, of whatever rank, after two years adjuncting.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don’t ask, but many places throw your resume without a bachelors into the trash at the first step in the hiring process. Ask me how I know. I'm very understanding of this sentiment. I have suggested to people to get around this by simply lying about having a bachelors degree on their resume. If the employer verifies, you're out nothing. If they don't, you have a job you otherwise wouldn't have had. You have to…

I suppose that could work, but you’re still vulnerable at the tech interview, aka test that can’t be studied for, or haven’t encountered in years. I’ve found the kinds of places that focus on these things tend to coincide.

My comment assumes the only signal you’re missing is the degree. You still have to nail the tech interview.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#35
post #4

This is an interesting reaction to the "bootcamp" trend (and subsequent implosion). I think it has a better chance of succeeding: you might not need four years of university education to become an entry-level developer, but a few weeks of intensive "bootcamp" training isn't enough.

I think the other advantage is that at most community colleges you are required to branch out from technical topics and take at least a few humanities and liberal arts courses. You end up coming out slightly more well-rounded which can be hugely beneficial both career and life wise.

Is there actually good evidence on the value of a "well-rounded education"?

But in any case, I don't think shoe-horning general education into what is basically jobs training is the right approach. We put kids through 12 years of "general education", if we haven't succeeded at that point, why would a few more college credits help?

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#36

I attended community college for a few years before transferring to a 4-year university. During that time I took a variety of technical and non-technical courses that I really enjoyed and felt I got a lot of value from due to the small class sizes and ability to connect with professors outside of class fairly easily. I would have stopped after getting my Associate’s degree as I felt like I had learned a lot and I had…

Do community colleges have professors? I thought they didn't really do research at community colleges and they were focused on teaching?

Why is “focusing on teaching” a negative?

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#37
As someone who's attended a community college both in my undergraduate career and again in preparation for grad school, this is something I think about quite a bit. Overall I'm pretty happy with my experiences studying at community college, and I'm of the mind that for most subjects, you can get a good education there. While I think it might be possible to get a decent education in preparation for a software development career at _some_ community colleges (like the technically-focused ones mentioned in the article), I suspect that's not the case generally. I think that has to do with two things:

One, part of the problem is that I've found "computer science" and "software development" get shoved under the umbrella of the "computer technology" departments of community colleges, rather than the math or engineering departments. Consequently there's a sense that software development is an extension of IT rather than an engineering practice. That might be true in a lot of settings (e.g. making VB widgets), but I'm not sure it's great for producing generalist developers. Frankly, I think it also lends to unqualified people leading departments, hiring instructors, and designing a curriculum. Anecdotally, one semester I took a discrete math class (through the math department) and a data structures class (through the CIS department); I ended up learning a lot more about data structures in the math class, and the programming project I did for the math class was much more instructive than any of the projects in the CIS class.

Two, across all institutions (boot camps, community colleges, universities) there doesn't seem to be a coherent curriculum on how to teach this stuff [1]. With math, english, economics, etc. the lower division classes are basically the same everywhere. Even if you think the way we teach subjects is kind of weird (as I do with math), everyone knows what "Calc II" means, or what's taught in an intro to microeconomics course. With software, there's no consensus on where to begin. Is it an infusion of theory and practice ala the SICP-based courses (MIT and Berkeley)? Intro to programming (Stanford)? A class where you learn how to use an office suite (a lot of community colleges)? Git and HTML/CSS (bootcamps)? [2] As a result, it's not surprising that individual classes don't line up. Maybe this is fine for the case where students will only ever study at one school, but for a lot of students indenting on transferring to a university (or anyone trying to evaluate a curriculum) it's quite cumbersome.

Not being an educator (and being mostly self-taught for software development), I'm not sure what the best approach is. Personally, I think a combination of theory/assignment based classes supplemented with longer-term project courses is probably the way to go. The former helps in presenting a general area or class or problems, and how to solve them, and the latter might help with exposure to the diversity of practical software development.

[1] I say "stuff" intentionally. Even the scope of "software development" is huge and hazy

[2] I could be wrong with the specifics on schools here :)

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do community colleges have professors? I thought they didn't really do research at community colleges and they were focused on teaching?

Why is “focusing on teaching” a negative?

I didn’t say it was a negative - you’ve imagined that’s out of nowhere.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you need about 20 years of top tier papers to get to the rank of professor?

Different countries and different schools define "professor" differently. The lowest rank in the US is often called "adjunct professor", which is a part-time position with no research requirements. Adjunct professors often only have masters degrees, as well. I don't think there's one single definition of "professor" that is true around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_ranks

Adjunct is grafted onto the side of the regular academic ladder, which goes assistant —> associate -> full professor, and then perhaps a named chair or professsorship (e.g. Lucasian Professor of Mathematics)

The idea behind adjuncts was originally that you might hire someone on a temporary basis, either because of an unexpectedly large class or to offer a class on a special topic: a famous politician might offer a seminar about their time in office or an industrial researcher might offer something related to their work.

However, it’s become increasingly common to hire adjuncts to teach intro classes because they’re cheaper than professors (usually a flat fee per class and minimal benefits) and don’t involve much commitment (usually hired per semester), both of which have obvious short-term benefits to the administration.

Re: Big Tech’s Hot New Talent Incubator: Community College

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I've never had an interview where they asked about my college education. They don’t ask, but many places throw your resume without a bachelors into the trash at the first step in the hiring process. Ask me how I know.

> They don’t ask, but many places throw your resume without a bachelors into the trash at the first step in the hiring process. Ask me how I know. I'm very understanding of this sentiment. I have suggested to people to get around this by simply lying about having a bachelors degree on their resume. If the employer verifies, you're out nothing. If they don't, you have a job you otherwise wouldn't have had. You have to…

Don't do this. I have a client who did this, and he now wonders how many interviews he _missed out on_ over a 3-year period because the employer was interested but the college screening came up lie-positive.

Many, many employers public & private do verify. And some people will start rumors if you are in a small community, or if they know someone you know. And if the employer later finds out that you lied, the lie will cost you the job, not the lack of education.

IMO if you are low on experience like education, your best bets are things like formal networking events or informal events (parties, concerts with friends, etc.), or even informal walk-ins to companies where you want to work. For some, the biggest problem is that they won't talk about wanting a job around their friends, for fear of appearing incompetent.

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