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Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

blog.infinitenegativeutility.com

251–260 of 348 posts

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#251

I'd owned this book for many years and had a similar experience to OP. But one day someone gave me `I am a Strange Loop`, which I started reading and enjoyed way more. After getting in a little bit Hofstadter makes some apologies for GEB saying it was the sum of work of a very young person. I think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. The things that lead him to thinking critically about con…

Thanks for the OCW link, would you happen to have all the lectures saved? Video for lecture 6 and 7 are missing.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#252
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but do you feel you have to read, to pick a slightly less fraught example, the white algorithms book? Or Patterson and Hennessy? Like TAOCP, those work perfectly well skimmed or read in bits and parked on your bookshelf or in your bathroom. GEB (or Moby Dick) are intended to be read in entirety.

I assume you mean CLRS when you say "the white algorithms book" - if so, I'm not sure I necessarily agree that any of these books are meant as reference works or "not intended to be read entirely". They're textbooks, of course, so there's something of an expectation that you'll read them over the course of months or years, but I do believe that all three of your examples are _meant_ to be read cover to cover rather t…

This 'reference' business really seems to stick in people's craws for some reason. I don't mean it disparagingly nor do I feel 'reference' is limited to the style of cookbooks and dictionaries. Nobody writes a multi-volume (or monolith-sized) technical work without the intent it also be used as reference. The work might have other purposes and even a different stated primary purpose - that doesn't make it not-a-reference.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#253
post #30

…well, it would have been, but for some reason I kept struggling to get through it. I thought highly of it, but my secret shame was that my admiration for the book was based mostly on the first two hundred or so pages. It took slogging effort to get myself through the rest, effort sporadically applied over the course of years. I did eventually make my way through the whole thing, but even now, I can’t necessarily be…

Yes, I also felt this reading his post. I think that he is rather ignorant of the fact that the vast majority of people reading the book (it won the Pulitzer Prize, after all) WON'T have a working knowledge of Godel's theorem. He's not well-placed to judge the efficacy of the record player analogy.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#254
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it such a great thing to be born that we are doing something good for our children by causing them to come into existence? I mean, c'mon. The only way for there to be something good, or great, from a first-person experience, is for there to be a first person to actually do the experiencing. Caveat, of course, bringing something into an existence that is only suffering is probably not so great. This is why we need…

David Benatar is the most famous exponent of the opposing view: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benatar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism Edit: though several weaker views are more common in animal rights advocacy, for instance that being born in order to be raised for food is not a benefit to an animal, that being born in order to be raised for food in a factory farm is not a benefit to an animal, or th…

Also see von Hartmann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robert_Eduard_von_Hartman...).

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it such a great thing to be born that we are doing something good for certain pigs by causing them to come into existence?

Is it such a great thing to be born that we are doing something good for our children by causing them to come into existence? I mean, c'mon. The only way for there to be something good, or great, from a first-person experience, is for there to be a first person to actually do the experiencing. Caveat, of course, bringing something into an existence that is only suffering is probably not so great. This is why we need…

We also need to treat our food animals well, because eating poorly treated animals is unhealthy. Both physically, and spiritually. Bad chemicals, and bad karma.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#257
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that is useful but I upvote lots of stuff so a separate saved list can also be useful :) For now, I have a bookmarks folder for stuff like this.

The 'favorites' feature is a saved list. It's not widely used. Maybe we should promote it, or maybe get rid of it.

I'd cast my vote for promoting it more, it's a pretty handy feature (at least for comments)... I also like that it lists things in the order of recently favorited rather than chronologically.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#258

Nitpick: "…had 13 not been prime" is not meaningless whimsy--a prime number of images is harder to lay out on the page. Mentioning this in the caption without explaining it is whimsical, but like a lot of GEB I'd argue it's whimsy with a purpose: training the reader to look for applications of abstract concepts. The reader ideally goes "wait, what? There's no connection between those two things! Unless..."

Indeed. And it's a small but interesting sentence, because it serves as a counterexample to some theories of counterfactuals. To quote the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on David Lewis (p □→ q means "if p were true then q"):

> The basic idea behind the alternative analysis was similar to that proposed by Robert Stalnaker (1968). Let's say that an A-world is simply a possible world where A is true. Stalnaker had proposed that p □→ q was true just in case the most similar p-world to the actual world is also a q-world. Lewis offered a nice graphic way of thinking about this. He proposed that we think of similarity between worlds as a kind of metric, with the worlds arranged in some large-dimensional space, and more similar worlds being closer to each other than more dissimilar worlds. Then Stalnaker's idea is that the closest p-world has to be a q-world for p □→ q to be true.

But "13 is prime" is the most central example of a necessary truth; in this example there _are_ no p-worlds. So the fact that this sentence is, in fact, meaningful shows that the way we use language is doing something different from Stalnaker's model.

And of course, the connection between counterfactuals, analogy making, and general intelligence is one of Hofstader's research interests, and he comes back to it in a later chapter. This example of his again kindof makes fun of counterfactual reasoning about mathematical objects:

> Related to this notion of slipping between closely related terms is the notion of seeing a given object as a variation on another object. An excellent example has been mentioned already-that of the "circle with three indentations", where in fact there is no circle at all. One has to be able to bend concepts, when it is appropriate. Nothing should be absolutely rigid.

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#259

I'd owned this book for many years and had a similar experience to OP. But one day someone gave me `I am a Strange Loop`, which I started reading and enjoyed way more. After getting in a little bit Hofstadter makes some apologies for GEB saying it was the sum of work of a very young person. I think he was 24? I think it's pretty incredible considering his age. The things that lead him to thinking critically about con…

Do you literally mean skip to page 300 and begin?

Re: Why I Don't Love Gödel, Escher, Bach

#260
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I'm an unrepentant TAOCP and Knuth fanboy. TAOCP is undoubtedly a Great Work™. I'm just bothered by the notion that someone would feel bad or inadequate for not having read it. GEB, on the other hand is... I dunno, an ok monitor riser if you don't have anything else handy.

That's what Cormen/Rivest is for. Much sturdier, too.

You're going to regret that choice when ED-209 breaks into your office and demands a precise definition of big theta within 20 seconds.
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