Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock • Hacker News Board

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#111

Post by mathiasben » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:11 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #30

mathiasben wrote: post #10

As long as software is composed of primitive language derived statements and "functional" logic (IF, WHEN, WHILE, DO, GOTO, etc...) AI will remain a fantasy.

This is hard to parse. All software that can be represented as if and goto (and some sort of assignment i suppose)? when, while and do are just if and goto. alpha go is all just if and goto. I'm not sure what you're looking for or alluding to. Is there some other operation that isn't just if and goto? because i think any function you come up with, i can just make a big table of inputs that result in specific outputs.…

the idea of creating a pre-determined program which will be followed is limiting. creating AI will require methods we can't yet conceptualize.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#112

Post by matthewaveryusa » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:11 PM UTC

One major aspect a lot of comments aren't capturing is that autonomous vehicles create a platform that goes beyond moving people around. Forget about the passengers during peak demand, that's already a given -- what about all that cargo that can be moved either with passengers or during off-peak demand hours?

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#113

Post by mcherm » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

the-pigeon wrote: post #110

This article talks about issues with deep learning than admits it's not used on these projects. Making most of the article not relevant to self driving cars despite being about them.

Despite PURPORTING to be about them, probably because news about self-driving cars tends to get eyeballs and Hacker News upvotes.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#114

Post by jellicle » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

vntok wrote: post #77

dsnuh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what mechanism though? I could see a big griefing opportunity if there is some automated system that allows law enforcement to signal the vehicle to pull over.

Check out waymo's videos; the car detects the flashing lights + reflective fabric on the police officer's uniform, as well as the shoulder and arm gestures. Griefing is as much an issue as is police impersonation right now, that is a very rare occurence that will be punished very severely when occurring.

How many different police uniforms do you think there are in the world?

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#115

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #63

comesee wrote: post #60

> “Rather than building AI to solve the pogo stick problem, we should partner with the government to ask people to be lawful and considerate,” he said. “Safety isn’t just about the quality of the AI technology.” Wow. What a goal post move. I don't think this is how successful technology spreads. Governments usually accomodate tech because it proves itself in the market, not vice versa.

Also, good luck marketing a product which only works when everyone is lawful and considerate, and otherwise has a considerable chance of killing occupants or pedestrians.

[deleted]

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#116

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

vntok wrote: post #72

myko wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics

Isn't it ethically preferrable for Waymo to push their own, better, safer system, as far as they can, rather than to improve competitor systems in a lesser way by sharing their secret sauce that competitors can only partially implement?

You could do both.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#117

Post by brudgers » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

Symmetry wrote: post #105

brudgers wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale of Alphabet, $1.25B about 1% of of 2017 revenue and about 5% of operating income. [1] Alphabet isn't betting the future on it. Relative to the automotive industry sixty thousand vehicles in 2018 compares to about 100,000,000 vehicles worldwide per year. [2] Compared to the number of cars in my driveway and the balance of my checking account, the numbers are big. At industrial scale, they are small. If al…

Corporations like Alphabet don't spend 1% of their revenue on something unless they're very confident it will pan out.

Alphabet spent $12.5 billion on Motorola Mobility in 2011 and sold it to Lenovo for $3 billion three years later. The lost $9+ billion? Nobody really noticed. For Alphabet, $1 billion is mad money, not the rent. Self driving cars are a moonshot.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#118

Post by ummonk » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

Symmetry wrote: post #105

brudgers wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the scale of Alphabet, $1.25B about 1% of of 2017 revenue and about 5% of operating income. [1] Alphabet isn't betting the future on it. Relative to the automotive industry sixty thousand vehicles in 2018 compares to about 100,000,000 vehicles worldwide per year. [2] Compared to the number of cars in my driveway and the balance of my checking account, the numbers are big. At industrial scale, they are small. If al…

Corporations like Alphabet don't spend 1% of their revenue on something unless they're very confident it will pan out.

You mean like Nest and Google Fiber?

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#119

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

dsnuh wrote: post #42

vamin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will pull over.

By what mechanism though? I could see a big griefing opportunity if there is some automated system that allows law enforcement to signal the vehicle to pull over.

Actually that's kinda interesting.

Instead of recognizing the lights or something you could create a communication of some sort where the officer's vehicle provides a key that the car can then authenticate that it's a real police officer making the pull over request.

Heck you could even check with a police department system that the officer is on duty and in that area so a stolen police car or key couldn't be used.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#120

Post by comesee » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #65

microcolonel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, good luck marketing a product which only works when everyone is lawful and considerate, and otherwise has a considerable chance of killing occupants or pedestrians.

Cars that you can buy today are such a product. As are kitchen knives.

Not in the same way, there is accountability when a driver or knife wielder uses them dangerously. He's arguing for putting the accountability on pedestrians, which would be the equivalent of putting accountability on a murder victim. "Hey, it's not the murderers fault, the victim shouldnt walk around in bad neighborhoods."