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Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

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Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#101

As long as software is composed of primitive language derived statements and "functional" logic (IF, WHEN, WHILE, DO, GOTO, etc...) AI will remain a fantasy.

All software can compile down into mathematical expressions, logical branches and conditionals. That doesn't mean AI is limited to "Hello World" and FizzBuzz.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure Waymo will make a lot of progress with their massive investment but using SV money as an indicator for a project's ultimate success seems unwise at this point. I think the real question is whether the big investors in self-driving cars will make progress creating virtual rails for their vehicles, e.g. roads where we can keep pedestrians out.

That is a train or a tram, not a car.

yeah, a tram for one or a few passengers that can go off the rails for the final quarter mile

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#104
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another attack surface for self-driving cars

Sure, if you're willing to risk going to jail for impersonating a law enforcement officer.

Is fooling a computer system into thinking you are a police officer the same thing as fooling a person?

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#105
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree. Waymo ordered 62,000 Chrysler Pacificas with delivery slated for late 2018. Base retail on the hybrid model is $40,000USD. Even if they got an unbelievably generous 50% discount, that means they're $1.24B USD serious, excluding the cost of the additional autonomous driving equipment. So this will either be one of the biggest debacles in Google/Alphabet's history, or they really are ready to go.

At the scale of Alphabet, $1.25B about 1% of of 2017 revenue and about 5% of operating income. [1] Alphabet isn't betting the future on it. Relative to the automotive industry sixty thousand vehicles in 2018 compares to about 100,000,000 vehicles worldwide per year. [2] Compared to the number of cars in my driveway and the balance of my checking account, the numbers are big. At industrial scale, they are small. If al…

Corporations like Alphabet don't spend 1% of their revenue on something unless they're very confident it will pan out.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#106
post #9
post #2

Waymo seems to be the only question mark in my mind making me doubt my bet that we're a decade or more away from usable self-driving cars. If Waymo has truly solved the problem while everybody else is just trying to catch up and/or bluffing, I guess I wouldn't be that surprised. Edited to add: The reason is that they've apparently ordered 10's of thousands of these cars. Can they really use that many only in good-wea…

I tend to agree. Waymo ordered 62,000 Chrysler Pacificas with delivery slated for late 2018. Base retail on the hybrid model is $40,000USD. Even if they got an unbelievably generous 50% discount, that means they're $1.24B USD serious, excluding the cost of the additional autonomous driving equipment. So this will either be one of the biggest debacles in Google/Alphabet's history, or they really are ready to go.

No. The annual production of Pacificas is only 65K vehicles or so. Google ordered those vehicles in the same way that airplanes are bought. The "62,000" is over many years, and is purely speculative, and cancellable/modifiable as needed.

Google is buying a couple thousand Pacificas in the near future. That's it. It's more or less a commitment to keep buying a couple thousand a year for the next however-many years, in exchange for a discount.

It is NOT the case that Google is going to open a big box and find 62,000 vehicles inside in late 2018.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#107
post #4

The crashes that the article claims came from edge-cases that the engineers didn't account for weren't, in fact, edge-cases. The Tesla crashes are due to the way Tesla's system works, it doesn't recognize stationary hazards. Similarly Uber's system failed to brake for a hazard that it could clearly see. That's not an edge-case, it doesn't have to know that the object is a woman pushing a bicycle. It's a solid object…

Citing the Uber case is particularly egregious. Have we all forgotten the NTSB report? It was only a few weeks ago. The Uber car tried to brake, but Uber had deliberately disabled the brakes for a more comfortable ride.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#108
-A decision was made to do nothing based on ambiguity in perception, and the emergency braking was turned off because it got too many false alarms from the sensor”

So instead of solving this problem it was decided to go forward;abominable. At least the truth came out.

Re: Self-driving cars are headed toward an AI roadblock

#109
post #92
post #2

Waymo seems to be the only question mark in my mind making me doubt my bet that we're a decade or more away from usable self-driving cars. If Waymo has truly solved the problem while everybody else is just trying to catch up and/or bluffing, I guess I wouldn't be that surprised. Edited to add: The reason is that they've apparently ordered 10's of thousands of these cars. Can they really use that many only in good-wea…

>Can they really use that many only in good-weather places with perfect roads? Waymo supposedly processes their lidar signals to detect other cars with reasonable accuracy even in snow/rain( https://youtu.be/UrJ4-AUL4U0?t=9m41s ). They only operate in pre-mapped areas so they should be able to follow lanes just fine even if the actual markings are obscured (by weather or by poor maintenance). This kind of approach (m…

Thanks for posting that Waymo vid, that's the best processing of Lidar in adverse conditions that I've seen. I think the million dollar question is how far Waymo (or others) can push noise reduction with Lidar. The video seems impressive in isolation, but if you compare it to what Nvidia was doing with cameras two years ago (object recognition in snow/fog that appears to outperform humans[1]), it quickly becomes apparent that Lidar is still nowhere close. But maybe they can get it good enough to bridge us between specific and general techniques.

Personally, I'm long on the camera-based approach because I think reliable autonomy will require a generalized vision solution, and once you've achieved that, the Lidar is redundant.

1: https://youtu.be/HJ58dbd5g8g?t=7m20s

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