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U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

mercurynews.com

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Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#111

Post by ozzy6009 »

MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #81

This article fails to understand the true costs of European economic arrangements. Let's consider healthcare. Often touted as an example of how much "better" Europe (and Canada, etc) is than the US, consider: 1. Wait times are often much greater in countries with socialized medicine and this has serious implications: in Canada between 1993 and 2009, around 40,000 people died as a result of increased wait times due to…

I would agree that American policies have increased the size of our healthcare sector, but is this really something that can be attributed to free market decisions? How much more growth can we handle when it is already 18% of our GDP ($3.4 trillion)? There is probably an argument to be made that healthcare in the USA is better than a place like Canada, but I really don't think it is 2 times better (~$10,000 vs ~$5,000 per capita).

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#112

Post by dv_dt »

virmundi wrote: post #33

What I don't understand, and you may say that it's the intrenched powers keeping the status quo, is why the US picks such poor implementations of certain ideas. The article mentions low collective bargaining. Our model, as an American, is pretty much one union per vertical. There is the Teamsters. There are no unions that compete with the Teamsters. I believe that Germany has unions that fight each other for contract…

I think there was so much union suppression in the US, that in many areas, unions only survived where the company was literally risking peoples lives or chewing up their health, like in heavily industrialized factories. And because those lines have been hard fought for decades, there is little trust.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#113

Post by dasil003 »

MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #82
finaliteration wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They get to keep a greater portion of their income I always see this come up during discussions about how the US compares to other developed countries. I think the mentality is slightly different in the EU. If you were raised knowing that your income was going to be taxed at 50% but you also got free healthcare, education, welfare assistance, etc., you’d probably learn to value those things over buying a bigger TV…

The problem with free education is that as more people become educated, the signaling effect of education becomes diluted. So the Europeans are paying for something that decreases in real value the more that people have access to it. That's a self defeating policy, especially since it encourages people to remain in academia for significantly longer than they would otherwise, because hey, it's paid for by the taxpayer…

That's a nice economic theory you've concocted, but it seems like you're living in a bubble. The reality on the ground in the US is that college degree inflation happened every bit as much in the EU by a generation of middle-class people who saw a college education at the ticket to prosperity. Now to get any kind of decent job requires a college degree. Federal loans are handed out like candy, and people snap them up despite not having any financial basis for that decision. Because the loans are unforgivable in bankruptcy, there is much lower risk in handing them out. Because the loans are easy to get, college tuition rises higher and higher outside the realm of real market forces.

The fantasy that the US system is someone leveraging market forces to optimize efficiency is ludicrous. 18-year-old kids have no idea of the impact of 5 or 6 figure loans at various interest rates and their expected ROI. Even many of their parents, who had good post-war working class union jobs with a nice pension and affordable homes they could buy in their early 20s have a blind spot around this because all they know is that the career paths they enjoyed are dead and gone and just some vague ideal that "college-educated" is still a meaningful adjective.

Frankly, it's an embarrassment to even try to sell the idea that the US system is better. The only significant difference in outcomes is that a huge portion of young Americans are destroying their lives with unmanageable debt, where EU citizens may get an inflated degree but they won't be an indentured servant for the rest of their lives.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#114

Post by nerdponx »

maratd wrote: post #29
nerdponx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for middle-class and upper-middle class workers. But there has always been an underclass of people who barely make enough to survive, lack the market power to negotiate for better wages, lack the ability to acquire new skills in order to get different jobs, and/or are stuck with their current employers for lack of other opportunities. This population is also susceptible to overtime abuse and wage theft.…

> I am sure that much of that take-home pay is offset by higher medical costs and the need for more retirement savings This is not true. Those same workers get most or all of their insurance costs covered by the company. Same goes for retirement with 401k plans, etc. > Not to mention the fact that the American work week is longer and vacation days are rarer. This is true.

Even after employer subsidies, group rates, and tax savings from income deduction, health insurance can cost a lot of money, and you will still have routine non-covered medical expenses, as well as quite a lot of downside risk depending on your plan.

Same with 401(k). Employer match is a nice bonus but it is not enough.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#115

Post by vilmosi »

MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #82
finaliteration wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They get to keep a greater portion of their income I always see this come up during discussions about how the US compares to other developed countries. I think the mentality is slightly different in the EU. If you were raised knowing that your income was going to be taxed at 50% but you also got free healthcare, education, welfare assistance, etc., you’d probably learn to value those things over buying a bigger TV…

The problem with free education is that as more people become educated, the signaling effect of education becomes diluted. So the Europeans are paying for something that decreases in real value the more that people have access to it. That's a self defeating policy, especially since it encourages people to remain in academia for significantly longer than they would otherwise, because hey, it's paid for by the taxpayer…

>>> The problem with free education is that as more people become educated, the signaling effect of education becomes diluted.

That's only true if money is the only criteria for going to college. Just because it's free, it doesn't mean it's open for everyone.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#116

Post by MatrixAlgebra »

dasil003 wrote: post #113
MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with free education is that as more people become educated, the signaling effect of education becomes diluted. So the Europeans are paying for something that decreases in real value the more that people have access to it. That's a self defeating policy, especially since it encourages people to remain in academia for significantly longer than they would otherwise, because hey, it's paid for by the taxpayer…

That's a nice economic theory you've concocted, but it seems like you're living in a bubble. The reality on the ground in the US is that college degree inflation happened every bit as much in the EU by a generation of middle-class people who saw a college education at the ticket to prosperity. Now to get any kind of decent job requires a college degree. Federal loans are handed out like candy, and people snap them up…

So essentially:

You're trying to argue that forcing the entire population to pay for college education for everyone is justifiable even when the people going to college may study subjects or intend to enter fields that have very poor financial prospects or lack productive value for the society as a whole.

As opposed to....

A system in which people have the freedom to decide for themselves how to allocate their own financial resources based on their career goals and not use other people's money to fund 4 years of useless study (if they study a useless subject)?

You have a very skewed understanding of what is fair and justifiable.

If people make poor financial and educational decisions, that's on them. Don't punish the rest of society by forcing it to foot the bill for someone else's foolishness.

The sad thing is, Europeans will be the indentured servants for the rest of their lives because of the depressed wages they'll have to endure and the high taxes they'll have to pay.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#117

Post by moorhosj »

Reactionary_ wrote: post #44
abritinthebay wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really due to the job there though - it’s due to the overall state of the country & infrastructure. Not really the same thing. When compared to countries with similar quality of infrastructure & “development” the US fares extremely poorly.

Extremely poorly? How so?

Did you read this article or the OECD report it is based on? Probably some clues in there if you are interested in finding your answer.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#118

Post by MatrixAlgebra »

deadmetheny wrote: post #110
MatrixAlgebra wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The information is available to them, they have no one to blame but themselves. It is not the duty of the taxpayer to fund poor decision making. That's one of the major philsophical differences between the US and Europe: people must take responsibility for themselves and their own lives.

The problem with the 'personal responsibility' screed in regards to university in America is that more or less my entire generation was hoodwinked into going to college and doing anything and to totally not worry about the cost because loans are available and you'll never get a job that will amount to anything if you don't go to college. Ironically enough, a large portion of my high school class that's doing the best…

Everything you say (except for the bit about me being willfully ignorant or an asshole) is true.

The solution to the problem is getting people to be realistic about their prospects. Guidance counselors play a role in this solution. So do parents. And the students themselves.

But the solution absolutely does not involve raising taxes to pay for everyone to go to college.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#119

Post by duxup »

virmundi wrote: post #33

What I don't understand, and you may say that it's the intrenched powers keeping the status quo, is why the US picks such poor implementations of certain ideas. The article mentions low collective bargaining. Our model, as an American, is pretty much one union per vertical. There is the Teamsters. There are no unions that compete with the Teamsters. I believe that Germany has unions that fight each other for contract…

I think you are on to something. There are powers with an interest in keeping the status quo....but I think it is more often than not on an issue by issue basis and less often about overall social control.

Fact is some folks straight up vote against their best interests and others don't vote, ultimately just bad choices are a part of democracy.....and that plays a big part.

Also unions in the us really do suck sometimes. My wife is a part of the teachers union and it is a mess.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#120

Post by 18pfsmt »

ergothus wrote: post #96
sol_remmy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever tried to get non-urgent surgery in the US? Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality. The UK, a nation of 60 million, has 120,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-patients-waiti... That would be equivilant to over 640,000 people waiting over 6 months for surgery in a country with 320 million people. The wait times do not compare. They…

> Whatever you say on this does not line up with reality. This sounds like you refuse to consider that you could be wrong. Is there evidence that would convince you, or will you simply decide any evidence is wrong and find a new justification? I could be wrong (feel free to prove me so! ;) ) and there is nothing wrong with being convicable-but-unconvinced (as I currently am about the superiority of the US healthcare…

Why is this a competition and quest for superiority?

The US is very different from its founding principles, priorities, and government structure. Comparing on just the basis of healthcare costs reduces these complex differences to simple sound bytes and obliterates any nuance.

This is not healthy for discussion.

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