U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#31

Post by swimfar » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

djcrayon wrote: post #14

Reactionary_ wrote: post #2

The US is one of the best places in the world to be a business owner, that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies. In order to create such an environment worker protections cannot be as robust as in Europe. This biased article of course ignores that fact. Many workers are much better off in the US than in Europe as well. They get to keep a greater portion of their income, their income goes…

I would love a citation on this. Anecdotally, I have lived in both the United States and United Kingdom. My tax rate was similar and in the UK I largely paid less for rent, healthcare and public transportation while paying more for staples like food. All in all costs were largely equaled out, although in the UK I enjoyed more vacation and worker protections I did not have as a US employee.

I don't know about the UK, but my net annual savings in the US is about equal to what my gross income would be in France or Germany. If I worked in the tech industry I'm sure the difference would be even greater.

Also, healthcare is a problem in the US for people who don't get it from their employer. For those who do, it's often relatively inexpensive. I pay ~$100/month for really good coverage.

It's the lower to lower-middle class that has it difficult in the US.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#32

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #28

ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe spends half what we do on healthcare per-capita (and the gap is widening, as their costs historically don't grow as quickly - https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-... ). Just because our government does a shitty half-assed job of it doesn't mean all governments have to.

PolitiFact, a liberal site, rates your claim as FALSE: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/... That graph is not even accurate. This says Canada's health care spending is $6600 per person: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-to-spend-more-than-6-60... while your graph says its $4500. Those numbers aren't even in the same ballpark.

The graph is inaccurate because the 2017 and 2015 numbers are different?

Find any source - any reputable source - that indicate US healthcare costs are anywhere near the rest of the OECD.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#33

Post by virmundi » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

What I don't understand, and you may say that it's the intrenched powers keeping the status quo, is why the US picks such poor implementations of certain ideas.

The article mentions low collective bargaining. Our model, as an American, is pretty much one union per vertical. There is the Teamsters. There are no unions that compete with the Teamsters. I believe that Germany has unions that fight each other for contracts and membership. At the same time our model is one filled with corruption. (Though I've never heard many complain about IBREW corruption.) Our auto union would rather see the company disappear than reduce wages, or have some of their members dismissed. All the while it's common to hear stories of the Auto Workers Union defending drunk forklift drivers making north of 90k a year.

If it is just institutional power, why do we defend or allow this? I was watching Killer Mike on Colbert just now. He complained about the plight of blacks in poor communities. It seems like they are a microcosm of the general problems facing this country. He talked about how the governments kept people down. When he mentioned the communities affected (an abridged list I'm sure), they all had democratically elected officials by that community. The party hadn't changed in 60 years. Why do they, and the US in general, allow these failures to continue? Tribalism?

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#34

Post by arethuza » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #22

sol_remmy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how every sector of the economy that the government is highly involved with (health care, education, real estate) keeps increasing its costs? Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie... ), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. You can thank the aggressive occupational licens…

> Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie... ), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. I doubt that's the majority of the massive cost difference. > For instance: Western european doctors do not need a 4-year bachelors degree just to _enter_ medical school. Don't know where you are…

Entry to both medical school and law school is usually done straight from high school in the UK.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#35

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #24

Reactionary_ wrote: post #2

The US is one of the best places in the world to be a business owner, that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies. In order to create such an environment worker protections cannot be as robust as in Europe. This biased article of course ignores that fact. Many workers are much better off in the US than in Europe as well. They get to keep a greater portion of their income, their income goes…

"They get to keep a greater portion of their income," If you are not in the very high income range this gets eaten up by health care and education.

As well as rent and transportation.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#36

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #25

nerdponx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for middle-class and upper-middle class workers. But there has always been an underclass of people who barely make enough to survive, lack the market power to negotiate for better wages, lack the ability to acquire new skills in order to get different jobs, and/or are stuck with their current employers for lack of other opportunities. This population is also susceptible to overtime abuse and wage theft.…

Additionally every time the underclass bargaining power is about to raise due to shortage of labor the ruling elite imports competition that has even less rights and has to work for less, in worse conditions and in constant fear of being deported. The most important thing to change is stopping illegal immigration. Either allow more people in and give them equal standing in the job market to citizens or don't allow th…

Simpler to just punish the people and companies that exploit illegal labor.

And of course doing that would reduce the incentive to come here and work illegally...

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#37

Post by drakonka » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

finaliteration wrote: post #13

Reactionary_ wrote: post #2

The US is one of the best places in the world to be a business owner, that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies. In order to create such an environment worker protections cannot be as robust as in Europe. This biased article of course ignores that fact. Many workers are much better off in the US than in Europe as well. They get to keep a greater portion of their income, their income goes…

> They get to keep a greater portion of their income I always see this come up during discussions about how the US compares to other developed countries. I think the mentality is slightly different in the EU. If you were raised knowing that your income was going to be taxed at 50% but you also got free healthcare, education, welfare assistance, etc., you’d probably learn to value those things over buying a bigger TV…

This is how I feel. I'm taxed a lot, but I can see that money being used for things to benefit me and those around me. I appreciate that I don't have to worry about bike infrastructure, or healthcare, or education, or my coworkers being stressed out about taking time off after having a kid. If I had that money in-hand those are the same things I'd want to buy with it anyway (except then I'd have to worry about actually taking care of all the details myself whereas now I don't). At the same time I feel like I can afford what I need/want even if I take home less money than I would in parts of the US.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#38

Post by braythwayt » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

gota wrote: post #18

Well, virtually nobody browsing HN can say they share the pains of the workers of the US that 'suffer when compared with the rest of the world'. Sure, there are many low-income residents, high inequality, high turnover, low unemployment with low upward job mobility, etc. All those things are true for the 'disadvantaged', and engineers, technologists, computer scientists etc. are _not_ part of the population that make…

  > nobody here will come to the conclusion they better leave to the EU because they'd be better there

If not the EU, there is this fairly European country that shares timezones with the US and has a reasonable tech scene going on, and you can actually drive back and forth between the US and this country across the longest undefended border in the world.

It used to be one of the US's best friends and strongest allies. Before Russia swooped in like a bad new BF/GF and convinced the US that all of its friends are really its enemies.

There is already a fair bit of job mobility between this country and the US, and you can get these weird "socialist" things like healthcare and education that won't bankrupt you.

You're welcome here.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#39

Post by Reactionary_ » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #4

Reactionary_ wrote: post #2

The US is one of the best places in the world to be a business owner, that's why its economy is so much more dynamic than European economies. In order to create such an environment worker protections cannot be as robust as in Europe. This biased article of course ignores that fact. Many workers are much better off in the US than in Europe as well. They get to keep a greater portion of their income, their income goes…

Yet, social mobility is higher in Europe. Also, americans can keep more of their income, if they skimp on health insurance and pensions savings. I don't think americans in general grasp how much higher quality the healthcare system is in Europe. Example: get scorned at by your GP doctor for seeing them for a bad cold. Get billed $20. Receive open heart surgery and triple by-pass. Get billed $20.

Social mobility doesn't really matter when everyone more or less has the same quality of life, as in Europe. That's what many don't understand. The Europeans have essentially nullified the value of social mobility in the first place. That is why their economies are more stagnant than that of the US.

Re: U.S. employment conditions compare poorly to the rest of the developed world

#40

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jul 05, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #34

realusername wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your inflated health care bills helped pay for the 280k average salary of physicians (source: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2018-compensation-overvie... ), which is over 2x as high as Western european doctors' salary. I doubt that's the majority of the massive cost difference. > For instance: Western european doctors do not need a 4-year bachelors degree just to _enter_ medical school. Don't know where you are…

Entry to both medical school and law school is usually done straight from high school in the UK.

Right, and it's two years longer than American medical school, as it's essentially combining the undergrad and the graduate into one program.