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Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

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101–110 of 131 posts

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#101

Reading the comments here, I'm surprised to see so many people defending the 2-week-vacation policies in America, rather than trying to figure out ways to get 6-week-vacations implemented over here. Doesn't anybody think they'd be happier with more time off? Enough so to make it a priority? I tend to take a lot of time off, and one thing I notice when I come back from a trip is how much more productive I feel. It's l…

If the sheep are trained well, you don't need fences.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#102
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "many, many decades old" mean? You do realize that there are people living in houses in Europe that have existed longer than the US has been a country, right? You do live in disposable houses. Have you seen how a house in the US is built? The walls are made of what are called 2"x4"s [1], spaced 1.5' apart. If you've ever been to Lowes or one of those kinds of places and seen insulation you'll see why. Insul…

I don't know what this has to do with any part of the actual discussion we're having, so I'm not going to bother engaging it. The houses most people in my neighborhood --- actually, in Chicago in general --- seem to live in will last longer than their lifetime, so the "disposability" of our houses isn't a factor in housing costs.

What is has to do with is: a house that costs e.g. $200k in the US is almost certainly more expensive than a $200k house in Germany because the German house is almost certainly better built (which costs more money, is worth more as materials, costs less to maintain, etc.).

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#103
post #26

What is the marginal cost to an employer in Germany of an hour of labor? And, in the US? The article did not explicitly state the metric used to quantify "output", but, given other similar studies I've seen, I must presume that profit/employee across the economy is a likely underlying metric. Given such a metric, could labor cost differences explain this "efficiency"? Let us consider a contrived example where, in Ohi…

Wages are in general lower, and on the whole the spectrum is compressed -- so low-paid jobs tend to be a big higher, but a software developer in Berlin makes about half to a third of what they would in Silicon Valley. Also, the article is a bit off on some of its numbers -- 6 weeks of vacation aren't required by law, 24 days are (i.e. just under 5 weeks), though 6 is a common perk. Additionally, at least in the softw…

But in Berlin, you can have a top notch meal with fresh veggies and local ingredients for $5, a beautiful apartment near all sorts of great things for $800 easily, and, oh yeah, excellent healthcare and other social benefits.

You can't talk about salaries in other cities without considering the cost-of-living differences.

That said, I know programmers in Vienna making what I would consider pretty good salaries (60-70K/euros), even in the US. With 5-6 weeks of vacation.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#104
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. They also have a working health care system, excellent public transit so no matter where you live you don't need a car, and so on. Clothing is insanely expensive. Food is more expensive if you're on a ramen diet, less expensive if you eat produce or bread and good deli meats. Quality of life is higher no matter what you earn. Germany is set up so you can enjoy your days and your life.

> no matter where you live you don't need a car [...] In the city, yes. In the suburbs most people consider a car a necessity to get to work.

I lived in the suburbs of Stuttgart, and the public transit to the other suburb where I worked was excellent. I usually biked, just for the convenience and because it was healthier, but the comparison with the situation in most of the United States is mindblowing.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#105
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average house in Oak Park is many, many decades old. I don't know what Europeans think of us, but I hope there isn't a stereotype that we live in disposable houses!

What does "many, many decades old" mean? You do realize that there are people living in houses in Europe that have existed longer than the US has been a country, right? You do live in disposable houses. Have you seen how a house in the US is built? The walls are made of what are called 2"x4"s [1], spaced 1.5' apart. If you've ever been to Lowes or one of those kinds of places and seen insulation you'll see why. Insul…

I'm pretty sure tptacek knows how houses are built, loewenskind. I believe his point, though, is that not all of us live in disposable houses - just all the poor schmucks who have a house built after WWII, really. I have a carriage house apartment that shows a bit of the transition; it was built in 1946. Instead of slats under the plaster, it has sort of horizontal strips of sheet rock, over which plaster was applied.

Most of our workforce - including everybody who did plaster - was gone for several years. Then they all came back and had the GI Bill to buy cheap houses. The market spoke, and we're left with a lot of people who know how to build cheap houses.

Now, my house is built of three layers of brick, made right here in town in a factory long gone. Its interior walls are 2x4 studs that actually measure two inches by four inches, and are roughly the consistency of iron after their 130-year drying period. (They still smell nice when drilled for wiring, though - imagine that!) There is half an inch of real plaster on that. You cannot harm this house.

I should tell you, though, that drywall is gaining popularity in Europe as well. It's just so cheap and quick, you see.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#106
post #48

I think it’s funny that productivity is often the only frame which is used to discuss Germany’s mandated vacation [1]. That’s not at all the intent of the law, its purpose is not increasing productivity. It exists because German lawmakers think that every employee deserves at least four weeks of paid vacation the same way US lawmakers think that every employee deserves at least $7.25 per hour [2]. I [3] am completely…

A discussion I had with a German couple in Verona while I was on vacation suggested that German companies don't generally give sick days and that the mandated vacation time had to be used for sick days. Was what I heard correct? As a comparison, the American company I work for (in Canada) provides a default of two weeks vacation with two weeks PEL (Personal Emergency Leave) that can be used for doctors' appointments,…

They don't have sick days. When you are sick you are sick it could be 1 day or 6 months. They don't give sick days because the government pays for your time off. So while they may miss out on your productivity, financially, they've lost little.

As an American I've encountered far too many Americans coming into work with just "a little cold" and getting the rest of the office sick. Dragging everyone else down with them because they can't afford to take time off to see a doctor and get medicated.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#107
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "many, many decades old" mean? You do realize that there are people living in houses in Europe that have existed longer than the US has been a country, right? You do live in disposable houses. Have you seen how a house in the US is built? The walls are made of what are called 2"x4"s [1], spaced 1.5' apart. If you've ever been to Lowes or one of those kinds of places and seen insulation you'll see why. Insul…

I don't know what this has to do with any part of the actual discussion we're having, so I'm not going to bother engaging it. The houses most people in my neighborhood --- actually, in Chicago in general --- seem to live in will last longer than their lifetime, so the "disposability" of our houses isn't a factor in housing costs.

Perhaps in Chicago itself. But Chicago metro consists of suburbs that, yes, are chock-full of the disposable houses you think are atypical for American construction.

I used to have a house built in the late 60's, in Bloomington IN. By no means was it atypical. It was a ranch on a slab, 2x4 stud construction, drywall inside, and Godawful cheap paperboard siding. The windows were aluminum frames and had what I can only assume was a negative R value.

In Europe, people just don't build that way. Well, out in the boondocks, people might build a shack like that - but not in actual cities. Certainly not in a city the size of Bloomington. It's not a stereotype that Americans live in disposable houses, you see: it's just reality.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#108
post #24

What is the marginal cost to an employer in Germany of an hour of labor? And, in the US? The article did not explicitly state the metric used to quantify "output", but, given other similar studies I've seen, I must presume that profit/employee across the economy is a likely underlying metric. Given such a metric, could labor cost differences explain this "efficiency"? Let us consider a contrived example where, in Ohi…

You're probably right about the labor-saving techniques. In Germany, you get gardeners with automatic leaf blowers (i.e., faster, but more noise), and with a whole slew of bottom-tier jobs (such as supermarket baggers) missing. The car industry is purely based on robots and automation - which is probably the same in the US.

I suspect this must be a European thing then. I'm in London and I'd assumed that leaf blowers were a universal thing, and I had to google "supermarket bagger" - it seems like a weird gimmick, is this common?

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#109
post #104
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter where you live you don't need a car [...] In the city, yes. In the suburbs most people consider a car a necessity to get to work.

I lived in the suburbs of Stuttgart, and the public transit to the other suburb where I worked was excellent. I usually biked, just for the convenience and because it was healthier, but the comparison with the situation in most of the United States is mindblowing.

Yes. That's why I said most. It's definitely doable not to have a car in Germany. My family did not have one, when I lived there.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#110

As a Brit who used to work in New York, for an investment company, I have a different view. While I agree my US fellow workers are very sociable during the day, they do tend to run off 5pm sharp! There's no "go for beers after work" environment. I spoke to them candidly about this and they said their real friends are the ones they grew up with and tend to hang out with them. I also had a colleague at HSBC and another…

It think it just depends on the company. I moved from NZ to NYC and worked for a software company there (just north of the city in White Plains) for five years. There was a good crew there that went out for drinkies on a regular basis. Someone would mosey round the office about 5:30 and give the nod. Most of my mates there were ex radio guys / DJs and originally from somewhere else in the US though.

I knew a few people who worked on Wall St and they seemed to socialize with their co-workers too but I also knew one chick in publishing who had a similar experience to you.

Conversely I now live in Edinburgh and my team only goes out for drinks once in a blue moon. Of course much of it depends on personal circumstances such as if you're young and single or have a family with small children.

So, um I guess YMMV.

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