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Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

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Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#41

Post by anonymousDan »

mhd wrote: post #25
lenni wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German I find the recent sentiment towards Germany enjoyable but a bit surprising. Not long ago we we're the sick old man of Europe and Ireland was the European tiger. I like life in Germany but it all seems like flavour-of-the-month journalism.

Ireland has the same problems that the US has right now: Not enough industry. Germany actually produces a lot, which made the crisis less severe, even considering that the German finance sector basically did everything wrong they could do wrong. The boom in Ireland was founded on the service industry, with huge tax breaks to finance it. And the US has been moving more and more industrial jobs offshore. I don't want t…

Don't know about that, a large part of the boom in Ireland was founded on the construction industry, fuelled by an oversupply of cheap credit. As far as I know its service industry (and exports in general) are holding up pretty well.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#42

Post by tptacek »

gaius wrote: post #27
yummyfajitas wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the average American take a 2% cut in wages for an extra week's vacation a year? From the article: "In 2008 it was estimated that three vacation days were left unused for most American workers." Since the average American doesn't use all the vacation he has, the answer is probably no.

Because, as the article mentions, the culture of presenteeism.

In the few large company environments I've worked at, banking up unused vacation days was actively discouraged; it's an accounting problem (accrued days have to be paid on separation). That, plus the fact that virtually every established company has policies restricting year-to-year carryover of vacation, suggests that the "culture of presenteeism" idea, while compelling, is not actually suppressing actual vacations.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#43

Post by sasvari »

tptacek wrote: post #35
ido wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing appears to cost about as much as a major US metro area. Where did you get your information? Have you tried comparing the rent of a reasonably central apartment in Frankfurt & Munich (Germany's wealthiest and most expensive cities) with their New York and San Fransisco equivalents? Housing in major cities in Germany is drastically cheaper than in the US.

Are you seriously suggesting that Manhattan and San Francisco are representative of the housing markets of the entire US? The average cost of a newly built detached house in Germany in 2008 was $320,540USD. The average cost of same in the United States in 2008 was $292,600[1]. Yes, I did compare, but not aggressively. What's your source? [1] Bulwien Gesa via "Global Property Guide", and the US Government, respectivel…

These numbers don't take the lifetime of the houses into account. Without having actual data I would say German houses have a higher lifetime than US counterparts. In Europe, and especially in Germany, houses are usually built not for a decade, but for multiple decades (more robust houses, better insulation etc.). I am not sure if this also applies to most American houses. Do the numbers then still reflect the actual price?

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#44

Post by wheels »

ido wrote: post #33
wheels wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wages are in general lower, and on the whole the spectrum is compressed -- so low-paid jobs tend to be a big higher, but a software developer in Berlin makes about half to a third of what they would in Silicon Valley. Also, the article is a bit off on some of its numbers -- 6 weeks of vacation aren't required by law, 24 days are (i.e. just under 5 weeks), though 6 is a common perk. Additionally, at least in the softw…

Why would you compared Berlin (one of Germany's poorer mega-cities) to pretty much the best paying area for tech workers in the states? It's true that you'd still see a huge salary disparity even if you compare SV to Hamburg, Munich or Frankfurt, but comparing to Berlin is still a bit disingenuous. Also, I believe SV (especially for tech workers) is the outlier here - there is no other place in the world where develo…

The example holds for Hamburg, and is pretty close for Munich or Frankfurt. (I've spent four years working in Baden-Württemberg and four in Berlin.) Tech salaries are just a lot lower in Germany. In comparison, in the US, there are a number of cities where wages are pretty close to Silicon Valley. I believe NYC is a bit higher. If you want to compare finance to finance, I assure you that salaries in New York are higher than they are in Frankfurt.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#45

Post by maxawaytoolong »

tptacek wrote: post #38
maxawaytoolong wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renting an apartment in Berlin is WAY cheaper than in NYC, and the cheap apartments are actually nice. That's not really answering your question, but for a gigantor metropolis berlin is a lot cheaper than manhattan...

The rental market in Manhattan simply isn't comparable to the rest of the US. The average cost of a 3bdr apartment in the center of Berlin is, from casual Google research, almost exactly the same in USD as a 3bdr apartment in the middle of Chicago. Chicago, in turn, is more expensive than Cleveland, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Columbus, Omaha, &c &c.

I was comparing Manhattan to Berlin. Who gives a fuck about Omaha or Chicago?

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#47

Post by timwiseman »

raphman wrote: post #14

The article has some facts not completely correct: "The government provides citizens with free healthcare, free university education, and childcare." Healthcare plans are mandatory for most but not paid by the government. University education at public universities costs between 0 and 500 EUR per semester, childcare is subsidized but not completely free.

A related point is that if you are paying taxes and receiving services from the government, then they are not free. They are being paid for by your taxes (possibly subsidized to a degree by other tax payers), and depending on how much you are taxed you may be subsidizing others as well as paying for your own.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#48

Post by ugh »

I think it’s funny that productivity is often the only frame which is used to discuss Germany’s mandated vacation [1]. That’s not at all the intent of the law, its purpose is not increasing productivity. It exists because German lawmakers think that every employee deserves at least four weeks of paid vacation the same way US lawmakers think that every employee deserves at least $7.25 per hour [2].

I [3] am completely willing to accept possible adverse effects of mandated vacations on productivity as long as they are not too drastic [4]. I don’t view vacations as a means of improving productivity. (They might well be but the evidence I know of doesn’t do a good job of convincing me either way.)

[1] The law mandates 20 days if you work five days a week so it’s actually four weeks, not six.

[2] Funny enough, Germany doesn’t actually have a minimum wage.

[3] Just so you are not confused, I’m German.

[4] Germans are extremely wealthy so I’m not exactly concerned.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#49

Post by archangel_one »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #15
gaius wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but like I say, it doesn't tell the whole story. Would the average American take a 2% cut in wages for an extra week's vacation a year? The purpose of earning money is to enable you to live the lifestyle of your choice, that's axiomatic. If you can get everything you want for less money, are you more or less wealthy than someone who can't get what they want, for more? Also, productivity is not linear with time…

Would the average American take a 2% cut in wages for an extra week's vacation a year? From the article: "In 2008 it was estimated that three vacation days were left unused for most American workers." Since the average American doesn't use all the vacation he has, the answer is probably no.

I'm not so sure the answer is automatically no - I think a lot of workers will save a few vacation days as a buffer in case they need them for something unexpected. Also, the figure is probably skewed by companies that won't let the leave count go negative - in those cases it probably won't balance out to zero unless the employee makes a specific effort to.

Re: Why Germans have higher productivity and longer vacations

#50

Post by tptacek »

maxawaytoolong wrote: post #45
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rental market in Manhattan simply isn't comparable to the rest of the US. The average cost of a 3bdr apartment in the center of Berlin is, from casual Google research, almost exactly the same in USD as a 3bdr apartment in the middle of Chicago. Chicago, in turn, is more expensive than Cleveland, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Columbus, Omaha, &c &c.

I was comparing Manhattan to Berlin. Who gives a fuck about Omaha or Chicago?

Why stop there? Compare Berlin to Tribeca. Who cares about the Upper East Side?
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