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Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

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Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#91

Post by BvS »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #11
BvS wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. On the one hand it might be a good thing not to give the answers away so you also have to learn to search the web, use stackoverflow... but on the other hand it can be a huge time sink if you just want to know if your solution is correct. Maybe some kind of forum in addition to the bok would be a good idea.

Learning how to find answers to programming questions is by no means a time sink.

Totally agree. Just trying out stackoverflow was probably worth it. Nevertheless when I thought I had the right answer I would have liked to compare it to other/the "right" solution. Also if I already spent a fair amount of time searching and had problems to phrase the questions the right way for Google (not knowing the terminology) some kind of help might have been a good thing.

On the other hand I might have used thatcher help too early...

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#92

Post by angusgr »

zedshaw wrote: post #70
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also combine maps and filters in a list comprehension: suffix_str_lst = ['{0}_suffix'.format(x) for x in str_list if x[:4] == 'meep']

Read that out loud and tell me that doesn't grate on your ears? That's my basic test if code for the book would be understood by the reader. What you have here, this "symbol soup" is what makes programming hard for people in the beginning.

Some of the simpler list comprehensions (like the student one two parents up) are fairly "symbol soup" free, though - and a very clean way of expressing what you want.

OTOH, I can see how they could still be a hard concept for a beginner who hasn't done any functional programming before, particularly because they don't read front-to-back like most imperative statements.

EDIT: You can always split complex ones up as well, for most common usages:

  meeps = [ s for s in str_list if s[:4] == 'meep' ]
  suffix_str_lst = ['{0}_suffix'.format(m) for m in meeps ]
This one was probably a bit simple to really need that, but it's a bit easier to read. :).

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#93

Post by blasdel »

bmelton wrote: post #51
mikeryan wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why he's wasting time teaching python he could make millions (bwahahaha) giving "getting things done" seminars. Of course they would probably consist of him saying "find something that pisses you off.Then fix it" over and over.

I don't know how you got downvoted, but I don't suppose it changes the intent of my reply either way: That MIGHT just be the secret to Zed's success -- that so much in the world seems to piss him off means that there is so much stuff he feels he needs to fix that he's constantly drowning in the need to fix something. Some of us are more complacent -- I'm happy to fix the things that irritate me, but my body of work m…

Spite is an incredibly powerful motivator, only outclassed by survival.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#94

Post by steveklabnik »

chrislo wrote: post #79
RexRollman wrote: post #8

Zed, May I suggest making it available in other formats, assuming that it is possible, once it is finished? Perhaps as text or HTML files in a tarball? Or even as an epub (for Nooks and iPad)?

Also, how about translating to other (programming) languages? Would you be interested in people porting the book, Zed?

He said before he's got a generic domain as well, and would be interested in porting it to other languages, or helping others to do so.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#95

Post by jacobolus »

sharms wrote: post #34
jerf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't cover defining first-class functions that I could see in a quick check, didn't cover generators, and I think most disappointingly, didn't cover __metaclass__. That's some critical stuff for Python programming right there, everybody needs __metaclass__. Ahem. You have to pick what to cover. For a beginning Python book, I'm underwhelmed by the need to drag an entirely new and foreign(-to-Python) paradigm into…

I have programmed literally hundreds of thousands of lines of python without using classes or __metaclass__, as a counter example. When dealing in industry, we can't always hire the best talent, so there is no need to make things overly complex. Simple solutions work best for a lot of scenarios, and I haven't been limited by it yet. Not to bash Perl, but the whole reason we write in Python is because there were too m…

Keep in mind too that the new class decorators can do a lot of what metaclasses were good for, in a way much easier for the uninitiated to figure out. (Partly because once you understand function decorators class decorators seem obvious and straightforward.)

Metaclasses can do some pretty powerful stuff though. One of those features that you might never need, but if you do, you really do.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#96

Post by jacobolus »

chromatic wrote: post #54
sigzero wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't blame Perl. Blame the programmers and your methodology that allowed them to do that.

You can always delay fixing a social problem by switching technologies.

You’re implying that language syntax is primarily technical rather than social. I’m not sure I can agree. The reason that Python code uses standard idioms most places you go is that the larger-scale Python community is committed to quite a different set of social norms than the Perl community.

Pulling in that language-community momentum can definitely make a difference to the social/technical dynamics inside a smaller group.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#97

Post by [deleted] »

angusgr wrote: post #92
zedshaw wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read that out loud and tell me that doesn't grate on your ears? That's my basic test if code for the book would be understood by the reader. What you have here, this "symbol soup" is what makes programming hard for people in the beginning.

Some of the simpler list comprehensions (like the student one two parents up) are fairly "symbol soup" free, though - and a very clean way of expressing what you want. OTOH, I can see how they could still be a hard concept for a beginner who hasn't done any functional programming before, particularly because they don't read front-to-back like most imperative statements. EDIT: You can always split complex ones up as w…

[deleted]

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#98

Post by bmelton »

blasdel wrote: post #93
bmelton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how you got downvoted, but I don't suppose it changes the intent of my reply either way: That MIGHT just be the secret to Zed's success -- that so much in the world seems to piss him off means that there is so much stuff he feels he needs to fix that he's constantly drowning in the need to fix something. Some of us are more complacent -- I'm happy to fix the things that irritate me, but my body of work m…

Spite is an incredibly powerful motivator, only outclassed by survival.

For years, I worked for a boss who was always right. Not necessarily by being smarter, but by sheer force of will. She's a brilliant lady, and figured out the way to get some of the more competent technicians to perform was to subtly infer that she didn't think we could make deadline, knowing we'd bust our asses and put in 30 hour shifts to do it, just so she wouldn't be allowed to 'win'.

We called this process 'Hate Driven Development', and yes, in hindsight (and even in the moment) we all knew what she was doing, but she was clever enough to put it out there in ways where it worked even still.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#99

Post by jacobolus »

zedshaw wrote: post #62
MrJagil wrote: post #6

I am learning python through this book at the moment. It is my first attempt at learning to code, so I have nothing to compare it with, but I must say that this book is very good. My only gripe is that he poses certain questions/exercises that he fully expects us to solve, one way or another. But if we cannot; we're screwed. He does not give the answer. It has only happened once so far, but that was enough for me to…

Hey, can you tell me which ones you got stuck on? I can try give a bit of help either here or in the book. One thing about those though is that if you can't complete them, then just move on and maybe mark it for later. You should try to figure them out for a bit, but sometimes you just can't and have to come back to it later. Finally, make sure you have this latest version of the book. I added a small section in the…

One thing you might add to the book is a “what to do if I get stuck” section. I think especially pointing people (even newbies) at IRC is a good idea, as long as there's a bit of elaboration about how to effectively ask IRC questions.

Freenode’s web client http://webchat.freenode.net/ isn’t perfect, but it should be figure-outable when accompanied by some simple directions.

Re: Zed finishes Learn Python The Hard Way

#100

Post by trop »

VMG wrote: post #28

The last chapter (Advice From An Old Programmer) is very thought-provoking and slightly unnerving for someone who is studying CS

It's a lovely chapter! Thanks for pointing it out.

Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art. ... . The world needs more weird people who know how things work and who love to figure it all out.

It's inspiring to see him talking about the beauty of (software) engineering as a means of making which has the quality of an art.

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