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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because no one recycles in your country, everyone else should adopt your standards and not recycle too?

I think this should be added to the comment guidelines: please don't ask leading, nonconstructive questions as comments.

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

should cover it

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#272
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried a local alternative to Blue Apron. They hand delivered to our doorstep. It was pretty well done and organized. Packaging didn't seem particularly wasteful to me. Might be worth checking around to see if anyone local is more friendly that way.

Who did you end up using?

Not sure of the name. Some mom-and-pop startup in Utah County. My wife saw a coupon or ad for them and decided to try it out.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#273
During wartime, A significant difference to waste stream happened inside manufacturing, as a function of government directive. I believe its written up in quite a few places, my source is 'the peoples war' by Angus Calder.

In principle, if manufacturing is obligated to handle waste stream better, the evidence is, it can.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so they can enrich themselves That's the only thing I take issue with here. Characterizing this as intentional misconduct muddies the waters. The line between cutting costs and benefiting from an increased share price is long and winding. Don't blame people; examine systems. Where most of the money goes is back to keeping costs low for consumers, the same ones that are conscientiously keeping the tap water off.

I understand what you are getting at, but it seems like "blame the system" is an effective excuse for capitalism to literally destroy the planet we live on. If you subscribe to the "a fool and his money are soon departed" philosophy, which is essentially like, "well if they want products that destroy the world I will give them that" you are passing the moral accountability buck onto human society in its entirety. We…

I don't disagree with you, but the systems-level view is important not insofar as it shows us who to blame, but because it shows us the kinds of solutions that might actually work.

The combination of incentives over the entire system must produce the correct emergent behavior. So, for example, instead of trying to get individuals to voluntarily use less carbon without changing anything else (this will never work), you can educate the public, pressure politicians, and end up with a large-scale carbon tax (although this particular case may be wishful thinking!).

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#275
post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Pay per bag is not uncommon in the US where trash is collected by private companies. Many charge for each bag they pick up.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#276
I've always thought the single bin was stupid. Remember when you at least separated paper, plastics and cans? It's way way easier, efficient and less labor intensive for a consumer to do that very basic sorting than getting a facility to do it.

It's like data entry people who copy paper forms to a machine. Why not have a device the consumer can type their own data into? You'll get less mistakes and save a lot of time.

Having four basic sort bins is a very low effort for the person throwing shit out. It also reduces the amount of contaminates and makes life easier for people who do have to sort through all that.

American bottle deposits also suck pretty bad compared to our EU counterparts. At least in The Netherlands and Germany, every shop that sells glass has to take that glass back. Many have machines that scan the barcodes on the bottle and issue you a ticket you can use for purchases or cash.

The bottles actually get reused too. Old German beer bottles often have physical have grooves on them from the plastic rollers in machines! They get reused that much!

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#277
post #15
post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

which costs about $5 for a pack of 20 I’ve never understood why recycling wasn’t self-sustaining, isn’t there value in the raw material? When I was young reusing was the thing; a glass milk bottle went back to the dairy was sterilised and used again the next day. One bottle, with a recyclable aluminium foil lid, could be used again and again and again. Nowadays we make a glass bottle, use it once, then melt it down a…

They still do that in Spain. It really is unfortunate it's not a standard practice everywhere. With most areas having local bottling plants, it really shouldn't cost /that/ much more to ship bottles back. Regardless, I would love to see us switch back to glass. Even if the bottle doesn't make it's way back into circulation, it will never be an environmental hazard. It's inert and breaks down into sand eventually.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#278
I have no affiliation with the company Renewlogy (formerly PK Clean) in Salt Lake City, but they have a very interesting method for turning plastic into diesel fuel that is in use today:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900014582/utah-based-ren...

The Chinese ban on plastics is not having a major impact in Salt Lake City, according to Sophia Nicholas, Salt Lake City sustainability department communications manager.

Officials in both Salt Lake City and Salt Lake County say they are still picking up plastics from recycling bins as usual. By contract, none of that is ending up in landfills. Salt Lake City's contracts require the recycling vendors to accept and recycle plastics No. 1 through No. 7.

“We know that there is a lot of a upheaval right now,” Nicholas said. “But the markets are dynamic and they’re finding other alternatives for that type of material.”

The city of Boise, Idaho, recently banned plastics No. 3 through No. 7 in its recycling program and contracted with Renewlogy. Residents must separate those plastics into separate bags that now come to Salt Lake City.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#279

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

> The creators of all this garbage do so because it's profitable

See: Tile.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#280

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

Except it can also be solved consumer side as well, move over to materials that can easily be reused after being put through a dishwasher and charge a deposit on these items, also structure grocery stores to be in a way that is zero or low waste. The problem exists at every step of the chain, where we should primarily focus on reducing and reusing rather than trying to solve the problem of recycling.
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