Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#261

Post by xahrepap » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #200

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

This is such a big part of it and it's amazing that they get away with it. Case in point: Blue Apron. Blue Apron positioned itself as one of the more "recycle-friendly" food delivery services to try and fight the stigma against every delivery having bags upon bags of individually wrapped goods by providing recycling services. As a former Blue Apron customer, I loved that I could separate stuff out (hard plastic, soft…

We tried a local alternative to Blue Apron. They hand delivered to our doorstep. It was pretty well done and organized. Packaging didn't seem particularly wasteful to me. Might be worth checking around to see if anyone local is more friendly that way.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#262

Post by saint_fiasco » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

> Also, I think a lot of these laws also do another disservice in that they make people feel like they're doing something to help the situation which keeps them from actually solving the problem.

Suppose home recycling is pointless and all it does is annoy consumers for no reason. Could that cause consumers to buy things in packages that are easier to recycle? It's possible that if government took care of that, consumers would stop caring about it and produce a lot more trash.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#263

Post by r00fus » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

nimish wrote: post #116

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't regulate packaging, put a Pigouvian Tax on it. It's far better.

Why is that? A tax is slower and exempts the wealthy while inflicting the costs onto the poor. Regulation is cheaper, better, fairer and faster at getting policy implemented than a technical tax, and doesn't have the behavioral issues that abound when telling people they are "taxed" for doing something.

Taxes don't always need to be slower or more weighted to lower income (e.g. property taxes). However, they tend to be gamed more easily and sometimes have unintended consequences.

Regulation and taxes go hand in - how are you going to pay for regulatory enforcement unless you dip into some general fund? Answer: a tax.

The biggest lie about government is the one that claims all taxes are bad. Without taxes, you get Somalia. Someone is going to run the roads/commerce and enforce a tax to do so - do you want it to be the local strongman or an elected official (where you may be able to vote on how taxation works and/or vote someone else in)?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#264

Post by sirmarksalot » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #203

skosch wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong, but home diversion isn't entirely pointless. The best tax-funded downstream sorting system is no match for the moldy lasagna covering the scrap paper in your OmniToss Multi-Bin™.

Moving towards a standard where all food waste is compostable (except, probably, metal cans) seems like a big step forward. Food waste is generally the most unpleasant to handle, so its presence makes sorting the remainder of the stream more difficult. In Japan, some municipalities have a special system for food waste: https://www.japanfs.org/en/news/archives/news_id027774.html

This sounds like a difficult problem, because compostability and shelf stability are contradictory goals. Pretty much by definition, anything that doesn't break down on a store shelf after a day, is going to pile up in the compost pile. It's not a problem for fresh foods intended to be consumed that day, but if your produce bags were compostable, they would not be very useful.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#265

Post by a2tech » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

I get a ton of crap at work and other places for mentioning that consumer recycling is a giant farce and is nothing more than a distraction for the consumer so they can feel like they’re ‘doing somethkng’ while nothing that matters actually changes.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#266

Post by peterwwillis » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

0xcafecafe wrote: post #3

Hence it is always important to remember: reduce, reuse and recycle, in that order. You don't have to recycle if you can reuse.

Yes! And you can extend it to five R's: Refuse, Reduce, Reuse, Repurpose, and Recycle.

You don't have to buy or accept products that can harm you, your company or the environment. Vote with your dollar. Refuse non-recyclable giveaways/swag; plastic bags; toxic chemical solvents; items with unnecessary packaging; single use plastic; phone books.

Use less. Think about what you use and buy. Reduce junk mail, mailed bills; acquisition of unnecessary toys and tools; the amount of energy you use; water and wastewater; waste in manufacturing processes; acquisition of cheap products that may not last long.

Why buy something twice when you can buy it once and reuse it over and over again, such as cloth grocery and produce bags; water bottles/travel mugs; packable metal cutlery set; glass jars from pickles, jellies, and salsa; bring old takeout containers for restaurant doggy bags; a normal mop head rather than a disposable; washable dish cloths rather than paper towels; refurbished or used clothes, electronics, cars, etc; building materials from home improvement donation centers; rechargeable batteries; shoes and boots that can be resoled or re-glued; sewing for minor tears in clothes; borrow or rent rather than purchasing for one use; food scraps as flavoring for stocks and soups; food waste as composte; leftover plastic bags as waste containers or for organizing.

Take something and use it for something else. Repurpose junk mail envelopes as scrap paper; cereal bag liners, for handling/storing foods or organizing home goods; torn or worn clothes as rags; donate unneeded items rather than throwing away; tires as wall insulation or boat fenders; glass bottles for glass walls; plastic drums as floats, feed troughs, compost bins, rain barrels.

If the above 4 options won’t work (refer to this guide as well http://thegreeningofwestford.com/2012/02/how-to-recycle-ever...) recycle paper, plastic, metal, and glass; fabrics and textiles, including ripped or stained; electronics, accepted at some electronics stores and special recycling centers; wine corks, accepted at some wine and food stores; home good and building materials, to re-stores and habitat for humanity; books, home goods, clothing, and other items to thrift stores.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#267

Post by aeternus » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #37

aeternus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is careful sorting of trash/recycling really a good use of time? Seems better to put that effort towards development of techniques to sort en-masse. Likely controversial, but I think there is also an argument for simply throwing hard-to-recycle items in a landfill. If consumption continues to increase, it will likely become economically viable to eventually mine those landfills for raw materials.

I'd say yes it is a good use of our time. I really want ours to be the generation that stops punting problems out to the next generation. I'd be happy if my friend's children don't need to grow up worrying about how to deal with oceans filled with plastics, global warming induced fire storms and flooded coastal cities.

Interestingly, many of the things that we've though would be huge problems in the future turned out to be non-issues or much less of an issue than we thought. A few examples:

-Population crisis

-Peak oil & oil crisis

-Global cooling concern in the 1970s

-Ozone crisis

-Rainforest crisis

-Worldwide food shortage

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#268

Post by StephenConnell » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

wiredfool wrote: post #215

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the water you and I waste by leaving the sink on, goes back to the water supply. It is not like drywall manufacturing, where the water is tainted and should not be put back into the supply.

Sort of, but not really. The water on the input side of your tap is much more valuable than the sewer side. It's not usable for drinking water, it is usable for greywater purposes. If you've got a septic system, it'll go through that into the local ground water, if not, it'll go into the septic sewer and eventually to a treatment plant, and from there a river. If it was originally aquifer water, you've taken (likely)…

Northern California gray water and black water is treated and sent to Southern California as drinking water.

So it depends on where you are.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#269

Post by r00fus » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

xahrepap wrote: post #261

dpkonofa wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a big part of it and it's amazing that they get away with it. Case in point: Blue Apron. Blue Apron positioned itself as one of the more "recycle-friendly" food delivery services to try and fight the stigma against every delivery having bags upon bags of individually wrapped goods by providing recycling services. As a former Blue Apron customer, I loved that I could separate stuff out (hard plastic, soft…

We tried a local alternative to Blue Apron. They hand delivered to our doorstep. It was pretty well done and organized. Packaging didn't seem particularly wasteful to me. Might be worth checking around to see if anyone local is more friendly that way.

Who did you end up using?

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#270

Post by djsumdog » Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

jcoffland wrote: post #99

It's incredible that corporations are allowed to pump out massive quantities of single use plastic and then we blame the consumer for not recycling it. The idea that the solution is to change the habits of billions of people rather than enforce some rules on a few thousand companies is just crazy.

You know that famous Indian crying from litter on the highway campaign? It was funded by the packaging industry. It was part of a propaganda campaign (a.k.a public relations) by packaging company to place the blame on litter and non-reusable packaging on the consumer instead of the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koqNm_TgOZk