Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 362 posts

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#301

Post by slavik81 »

athenot wrote: post #194
jdietrich wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. Broadly speaking, that would be a te…

While CO₂ emission is important, this is not primary reason for banning plastic bags. It's plastic in various states of (un)decomposition all over the ecosystem. A cucumber is 100% biodegradable with no solid residue. The plastic that wraps it will take a long time to decompose and is likely to be found clogging up some piece of nature—whether in the soil, affecting plants or obstructing some body function of an anim…

Certain kinds of waste are more likely to end up being improperly disposed of. When was the last time you saw a cucumber wrapper or steak package blowing in the wind? I bet you see a lot more coffee cups and plastic bottles.

When people unwrap groceries, they do so in their home, and it tends to get disposed of properly. It's stuff people use on the go that most frequently becomes litter.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#302

Post by BRAlNlAC »

ryanianian wrote: post #251
gianpaj wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Ukraine, there is a big French supermarket chain called Ашан (auchan.ua), in which people can buy liquid cleaning products by the volume. For example, if you need a litre for dishwashing cleaning soap, you can go and pull a lever and fill an appropriate size plastic bottle. It's their own brand and it's very cheap. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring and use any plastic bottle, or you have first get it from them. T…

That's excellent. It's surprising even high-end specialty stores in the US (e.g. Whole Foods) don't do more of this.

It's the same problem that you see in Japan to an even greater degree, consumers perceive packaging as giving the product added value, so market forces push high-end retailers away from no-packaging because it's associated with discount/low end shops. In the US you can buy lots of things in 'Bulk' if you go a store like WinCo, which is marketed as being cheap. Additionally the Bulk foods just aren't as fresh as what you'd find packaged by the half-pound at Whole Foods as least in my anecdotal experience.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#303

Post by dd36 »

theptip wrote: post #295
dd36 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing waste that is properly disposed of with waste that is not. The problem is waste that is improperly disposed of and neither of those are solutions to that problem.

I don't think jdietrich is confusing anything; they explicitly said: > Plastic packaging doesn't spontaneously release itself into the ecosystem, it's put there by someone irresponsibly managing waste. They are (correctly, IMO) pointing out that this is a classic case of missing the root cause; it's a commonly held position that plastic containers are inherently bad for the environment, and that position leads to law…

Yes, it doesn’t spontaneously release itself. The solutions he then linked to don’t address the core issue.

We know how to properly dispose of plastic.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#304

Post by rconti »

weavie wrote: post #4
ohnoesmyscv wrote: post #2

When will US cities do the same? Most restaurants offer plastic togo containers, which ends up in the landfill. Some restaurants even use plastic bowls and plates for dine-in customers, arguably so they don’t have to invest in equipment and labor to wash dishes. With The China recycling ban, this becomes more of a pressing issue. I’m surprised cities aren’t outright banning or imposing a tax on the use of plastics at…

An American family I visited a while ago would use paper plates and plastic forks for every meal at home to save on dishes. I was shocked, but they seemed to think it was standard behaviour in the US. Is it?

No, it's not standard behavior.

You're most likely to see paper plates and plastic forks at picnics/cookouts and occasionally large gatherings where you may not have enough non-disposable dishes to serve everyone.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#305

Post by BRAlNlAC »

dahart wrote: post #297
jdietrich wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're comparing the transportation costs of cucumbers to the production costs of plastic wrap, this conflated comparison seems disingenuous to me. Cucumbers are wrapped in plastic to enhance their shelf life and reduce waste due to spoilage. If the environmental impact of the plastic is lower than the environmental impact of the cucumbers that would be lost due to spoilage, then it is a net environmental benefit. I…

I understand your argument about the net c02 benefit of wrapping cucumbers in plastic. It doesn't mean plastic should be used or that it's good. You're not comparing the benefits of plastic wrap to the benefits of increased engine efficiency, or the c02 benefits of improved sales cycles or local agriculture vs global conglomerate food producers. Drawing any conclusion from your c02 net benefit calculation assumes tha…

>the c02 benefits of improved sales cycles or local agriculture vs global conglomerate food producers.

Do you have any data to support the notion that there is a net CO2 benefit to localizing agriculture? Considering how impacted agriculture is by locality, That seems vastly less efficient than large scale industrialized agriculture, and would be honestly quite surprising.

>Not to mention plastic waste itself being damaging pollution, with a lifespan far longer than nitrates.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the real issue isn't the consumers of Cucumbers, its developing countries and China[1] using their rivers and oceans for mass waste disposal.

[1] https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/02/ocean-plasti...

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#306

Post by craftyguy »

slavik81 wrote: post #301
athenot wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While CO₂ emission is important, this is not primary reason for banning plastic bags. It's plastic in various states of (un)decomposition all over the ecosystem. A cucumber is 100% biodegradable with no solid residue. The plastic that wraps it will take a long time to decompose and is likely to be found clogging up some piece of nature—whether in the soil, affecting plants or obstructing some body function of an anim…

Certain kinds of waste are more likely to end up being improperly disposed of. When was the last time you saw a cucumber wrapper or steak package blowing in the wind? I bet you see a lot more coffee cups and plastic bottles. When people unwrap groceries, they do so in their home, and it tends to get disposed of properly. It's stuff people use on the go that most frequently becomes litter.

> tends to get disposed of properly

What exactly is the 'proper' disposal of plastic? Burying it? Burning it for energy? Recycling a tiny fraction of it and burying/burning the rest?

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#307

Post by ryanx435 »

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

Nothing is ever good enough for HN users, is it? A step in the right direction is always bad here in the comments.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#308

Post by icebraining »

shripadk wrote: post #259
okmokmz wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope this is sarcasm... You think it's appropriate for every employee to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a "terror attack"? How many IT workers are there in the country, how many attacks have occurred in IT offices, and how many attacks have been prevented by searching employees bags? Giving up personal liberties and freedoms out of unsubstantiated fears based on a few fringe ca…

How do you prevent employees from leaving with company data if one copies all the sensitive data onto a pen drive? Does security check the pen drives too? It's actually ridiculous to cast aspersion on the security when their job is to prevent threats. > You think it's appropriate for every employee to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a "terror attack"? How many IT workers are there in the…

So, from your links, nobody was actually killed by terrorists, nor has a security guard actually stopped any terrorist.

Meanwhile, you know who actually has killed Infosys employees? A security guard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN9MenY2dEs

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#309

Post by cptskippy »

jdietrich wrote: post #278
dd36 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical. Humans don't dispose of things properly. That's a fact. Creating more plastic waste will create more plastic pollution. It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste. Again, producers don't plastic wrap cucumbers to save CO2. T…

>By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical. Not at all. Cucumbers have a relatively short shelf-life due to a high water content and a permeable skin, so wrapping them makes economic and environmental sense. Apples and citrus fruits don't need plastic packaging, but their shelf life is considerably enhanced by the application of a protective wax coating. Some products like lo…

The problem with your reasoning is that it's based on your cultural and community experience and not that of the typical Indian. You're considering the impact of that law on your lifestyle and assuming it will impact all others in the same way.

How many people in India are buying their vegetables in plastic wrap from the big box grocery store?

According to unicef, 50% of the population in India defecate in the open. It wasn't until 2014 that a municipal in Delhi passed a law penalizing people for public littering and defecation. There are no national laws.

It will require a cultural revolution to combat littering in India. In the mean time banning the most harmful forms of litter will help to combat the growing problem.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#310

Post by dahart »

BRAlNlAC wrote: post #305
dahart wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your argument about the net c02 benefit of wrapping cucumbers in plastic. It doesn't mean plastic should be used or that it's good. You're not comparing the benefits of plastic wrap to the benefits of increased engine efficiency, or the c02 benefits of improved sales cycles or local agriculture vs global conglomerate food producers. Drawing any conclusion from your c02 net benefit calculation assumes tha…

>the c02 benefits of improved sales cycles or local agriculture vs global conglomerate food producers. Do you have any data to support the notion that there is a net CO2 benefit to localizing agriculture? Considering how impacted agriculture is by locality, That seems vastly less efficient than large scale industrialized agriculture, and would be honestly quite surprising. >Not to mention plastic waste itself being d…

> Do you have any data to support the notion that there is a net CO2 benefit to localizing agriculture? Considering how impacted agriculture is by locality, That seems vastly less efficient than large scale industrialized agriculture, and would be honestly quite surprising.

I pointed out that @jdietrich wasn't considering any of the many potential alternatives to wrapping produce in plastic, I didn't claim there's a net c02 benefit to local farms.

I don't think c02 emissions represent the sum total of "evironmental impact" as was implied multiple times above. c02 is important, but there are other important factors being ignored in this thread.

Implicit in your question is your assumption that large scale ag is more c02-efficient than local farming on the whole, which I would ask you to justify first. I don't know how to compare local farms to Conagra fairly, and I don't conduct c02 emissions research myself. But Conagra doesn't exist for efficiency, they exist to make money. Of course they value efficiency, but I would expect the scale of their operation adds more logistical problems to the food supply than it solves. They need to use far more transportation, refrigeration, processing and packaging than local food suppliers.

"Transportation of food accounts for about 11 percent of the GHG emissions from the food system."

"The energy used for refrigeration results in one of the main GHG effects from food production. Some products require constant refrigeration as soon as they leave the farm."

"Meat that is discarded in retail, industry and the home accounts for 20 percent of the total GHG emissions of meat production"

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/resources/pdfs/Local_Food_Sy...

What do you mean when you say local ag "seems vastly less efficient"? Why? What efficiencies are there that offset the extra transportation, refrigeration, processing, and storage costs that global ag companies have over local farms?

Perhaps implicit or assumed in your point of view is the idea of growing the same produce locally that one would buy in the store, without changing consumption patterns at all? Is that what you meant by "considering how impacted agriculture is by locality"? I'm imagining some change in purchasing behavior and I recognize that growing bananas & coffee isn't possible everywhere.

Post reply on HN