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Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

theguardian.com

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Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#151

Post by kamaal »

addicted wrote: post #97
thewhitetulip wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pray tell me how you found out that Bihar's alcohol ban has worked out? I was under the impression that there is a vibrant black market in Bihar too

The answer is a simple google search away. It’s worked out pretty well with all sorts of social indicators trending better. An alcohol ban doesn’t need to lead to 100% reduction to be deemed a success. In fact it almost certainly won’t. It just needs to make things reasonably better than they were before.

Let me get this straight, in a country like India bans never work.

Bans are a way of getting deregulated and ensuring a tax holiday.

You can't tax something that you have declared shouldn't even exist.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#152

Post by thechao »

wallace_f wrote: post #118

Why can't we agree to just do what Musk says about carbon: tax goods which create negative externalities for society? You could even do it this way: write the law such that an institution, whose job is to eliminate these externalities, is created, and then funded only with taxes on said products. There's two competing special interest groups to keep each in check so in theory it's even a institution which shouldn't h…

Carbon neutral atmospheric recapture of personal vehicle transportation carbon is probably about 600-700$ per ton of carbon. (Based off of practical experiments in the UK.) My read of the literature doesn’t show any hope of this number decreasing. A gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of carbon. This puts a carbon neutral tax on consumer gasoline at ~6-7$ per gallon. If you allow 20% “inefficiencies” (tax collection; frisson; profit margins), you’re at 7.2-8.4$/gallon. My fuel costs would go from 2.75$/gallon to ~10.50$/gallon. My yearly commute costs would go from ~1100$/yr to ~4000$/yr. I suppose it makes even a medium range electric vehicle look cheap—especially given the far cheaper costs of capturing carbon “at the stack” at the power plant would mean that central power wouldn’t be taxed as heavily.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#153

Post by kamaal »

someonenice wrote: post #88
kamaal wrote: post #34

Officially, :) In reality we all know how this will go. If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. Bans in India need to be taken with a pinch of salt. They banned tinted glasses on cars. In Bangalore, some people prefer to pay fine/bribe than remove the sticker.

I wrote above. Kannur district in Kerala, India has banned plastic carry bags. Now, shops in the main town area do not give away plastic bags. And most textile shops have started packing in Paper bags or cloth bags. I have been there its effective, specially when people complaint when shops use plastic bags. But out of the town area, its different. You will still find small shops giving plastic bags. https://www.theb…

When I visited Kannur on a holiday. I was still able to buy biscuit and chips packets wrapped in Plastic. So I guess they didn't enforce the ban after all.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#154

Post by jdietrich »

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

>Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away.

Broadly speaking, that would be a terrible backwards step for the environment. Plastic packaging often reduces waste by protecting the product from spoilage and damage.

A lot of people bemoan the plastic wrapping on cucumbers, but that wrapping doubles the shelf life of the product. It's a net win, because the environmental impact of wasted cucumbers is far greater than the environmental impact of a gram or two of polyethylene wrapping.

Many people argue that milk should be sold in re-usable glass containers rather than disposable bottles or cartons, but the environmental case is really marginal. The glass bottle is considerably more energy-intensive to produce and transport, with more energy used to collect and wash it for re-use. Returnable glass bottles are often worse than disposable plastic if the transport distance is too great and/or the breakage rate is too high. In many cases, the best option is reusable plastic bottles, which are less energy-intensive to manufacture, lighter to transport and more durable than glass.

Plastic is a wonderful material that has an important role to play in a sustainable economy. There has been a huge increase in the quality and availability of bio-based and biodegradable plastics in the packaging industry. We have irrationally demonised a very useful material, creating a huge distraction from much more serious environmental problems.

If you buy a beef steak wrapped in plastic, the problem is the steak, not the wrapper. The plastic wrapper produced ~10g of CO2 and required ~100ml of water to produce; the steak produced ~7kg of CO2 and required ~4,000 litres of water to produce. As long as it is disposed of responsibly, a whole trash bag full of plastic packaging has a negligible environmental impact compared to a single portion of beef.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#155

Post by tonyarkles »

narag wrote: post #13
makecheck wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs to become fashionable to basically carry lots of reusable stuff with you. We “sort of” have this for coffee containers and shopping bags but it would be good if people could also always carry a metal fork, plate, cup, and even a reusable napkin at all times. It’s one of those things that would remain weird if only a few people did it but wouldn’t be weird if most people did. It would also require eating esta…

Not sure I understood. Do you suggest that everybody carries their own cutlery to restaurants? Why? What's the relation with disposable stuff? Can't (don't most) restaurants have their own reusable stuff? I like plastic banning, as soon as it's in place all around, we'll see another non-contaminant material (only a little more expensive) replacing plastic.

Cutlery I would imagine being for takeout food, or fast food where there’s often plastic cutlery (around here at least). Even when dining in, though, my wife and I have been trying to remember to bring our own Tupperware containers for bring home any leftovers, instead of using the typical provided styrofoam packaging.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#156

Post by piyush_soni »

Again, nice objective but like demonetization, it's a decision without any planning/preparation, and the terms and conditions are changing almost everyday.

This is from today (small shop owners might be given relief from this rule): https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-...

They should have first researched and offered cheap environment friendly alternatives before doing the same. According to food delivery networks/start-ups, online food ordering was heavily impacted and a lot of restaurants have stopped home delivery because there are no feasible alternatives to delivering wet food (chutneys/sambhar etc.) The plastic cups, spoons and forks in mall food courts have been replaced too, but with wooden ones which just don't do their jobs properly.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#157

Post by ekianjo »

vishaltelangre wrote: post #105

Instead, government could've imposed ban on the consumer products which are wrapped using plastic material. Almost 50% plastic come directly from such consumer products sold by all FMCG companies. Such plastic material which is used as a wrapper (e.g. mineral bottles, wrappers of chocolates, biscuits, wafers, tobacco, etc.) is often useless and people tend to throw it right away. I agree that "we", the people need to…

> is often useless and people tend to throw it right away.

It's not useless per se. Packaging makes things look bigger on shelves and it gives a better perception of value for certain items (or makes them more visible on shelves). The good thing is that is going to become less and less relevant as we move more and more towards online shopping - I hope that at some point we just get a white box when its shipped directly from a warehouse.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#158

Post by chimeracoder »

ocfnash wrote: post #23
dingaling wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But such a tax gives no incentive for companies to change their packaging. The tax is paid by the customer who usually has few or no options. For example in the UK plastic one-litre milk pitcher bottles are ubiquitous. Even the few remaining door-to-door milkmen deliver them, instead of the old one-pint reusable glass bottles. I simply can't buy fresh milk in anything else and i have a recycling bin full of them. Rev…

In Ireland, we introduced a tax on plastic bags in 2002 and it had an enormous impact. (Actually we called it a levy: Irish governments never introduce new taxes, but love to introduce new levies!) One detail works in its favour surprisingly well: once you've paid, the vendor cannot give you a plastic bag. A new transaction must take place as part of every sale "would you like a plastic bag?" and this turned out to a…

> Actually we called it a levy: Irish governments never introduce new taxes, but love to introduce new levies!

What the difference? Everywhere else I've heard the term, a levy is something very different.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#159

Post by jdietrich »

thechao wrote: post #152
wallace_f wrote: post #118

Why can't we agree to just do what Musk says about carbon: tax goods which create negative externalities for society? You could even do it this way: write the law such that an institution, whose job is to eliminate these externalities, is created, and then funded only with taxes on said products. There's two competing special interest groups to keep each in check so in theory it's even a institution which shouldn't h…

Carbon neutral atmospheric recapture of personal vehicle transportation carbon is probably about 600-700$ per ton of carbon. (Based off of practical experiments in the UK.) My read of the literature doesn’t show any hope of this number decreasing. A gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of carbon. This puts a carbon neutral tax on consumer gasoline at ~6-7$ per gallon. If you allow 20% “inefficiencies” (tax collection;…

The price of gasoline in the UK is currently over $6 per US gallon; A few years ago, it exceeded $9 per gallon. Most of that price is tax. The American way of life might be significantly affected by a recapture tax, but it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference in most of Europe.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#160

Post by kamaal »

Dawny33 wrote: post #35
kamaal wrote: post #34

Officially, :) In reality we all know how this will go. If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. Bans in India need to be taken with a pinch of salt. They banned tinted glasses on cars. In Bangalore, some people prefer to pay fine/bribe than remove the sticker.

>If anything plastic use may now increase. Because it will now go unregulated. How?

Ban by definition implies deregulation and tax breaks(You can't tax things that shouldn't even exist)

This helps the black markets immensely.

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